Equity In Every Drop: Series Three, Episode Four

PFAS: Fighting Forever Chemicals with Brent Walls and Luis Cruz.

In this episode of Equity In Every Drop, host Thomas Hynes delves into the critical issue of PFAS contamination of our waterways with two expert guests, Brent Walls and Luis Cruz.

Upper Potomac Riverkeeper Brent Walls has dedicated over two decades to protecting the rivers and streams in the northern freshwater portion of the Potomac River, which covers Maryland, Virginia, and West Virginia. His innovative use of drone technology has revolutionized the identification and investigation of pollution sources. Brent provides an in-depth look into the Waterkeeper Alliance’s PFAS monitoring initiative, which has uncovered alarming levels of per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) contamination in rivers, lakes, and streams across the United States.

Brent, along with other local U.S. Waterkeepers in 19 states, joined Waterkeeper Alliance and Hispanic Access Foundation to release a Phase II report as part of the Alliance’s ongoing investigation into the scope of water contamination from toxic “forever chemicals” that do not break down and can harm our health. Building on our 2022 report that found PFAS in 83% of tested U.S. rivers, lakes, and streams, this next phase looked more closely at sites downstream of U.S. wastewater treatment plants and land where biosolids (treated sewage sludge) is spread—especially in communities already facing disproportionate environmental burdens.

Brent breaks down the “PFAS cycle,” including the complex pathways of PFAS contamination beginning with the underregulated industrial sources and how it moves downstream through wastewater treatment plants and other points into our drinking water and environment. Despite the daunting nature of the problem, he emphasizes the importance of collecting robust water quality data and engaging in legal actions to force industrial source polluters to clean up their practices. He also sheds light on a devastating setback when a $350,000 EPA grant to study PFAS impacts was abruptly canceled, underscoring the critical need for consistent funding and support. He highlights the urgent need for stronger regulations, expanded research, and improved treatment technologies to address these ‘forever chemicals’ that pose significant risks to public health and the environment.

Luis Cruz, part of the conservation team at the Hispanic Access Foundation, provides a complementary perspective by focusing on community engagement and education. With a rich background in biological and conservation sciences, Luis has transitioned from working at a wastewater treatment plant to advocating for underrepresented communities. He underscores the importance of translating complex scientific data into culturally and linguistically accessible information. This approach aims to empower communities, particularly those disproportionately impacted by environmental pollutants, to make informed decisions and advocate for their rights.

Luis narrates his personal journey, beginning with a transformative camping trip to Yosemite, which inspired his lifelong commitment to nature and conservation. He discusses his academic and professional experiences, including his work on the regulatory and practical aspects of wastewater treatment. Luis’s current role involves ensuring that Latino communities have access to valuable resources and information, fostering a better understanding of environmental issues like PFAS. He stresses the necessity of bridging the information gap and fostering meaningful connections between scientific data and community needs.

Both guests highlight the broader implications of PFAS contamination, touching on issues such as food system contamination, agricultural impacts, and the need for comprehensive regulatory measures.

Stay tuned! New monthly episodes will be posted here and anywhere you get your podcasts. Click “Subscribe” in the episode widget above to access links to popular podcast apps.

Thank you for listening, sharing, and supporting our mission to ensure everyone’s right to clean water. Together, we demand equity in every drop.

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Transcript – Series 3 Episode 4

Thomas Hynes: ​My first guest today is Brent Walls of Upper Potomac River keeper. His work centers on defending the public trust of the rivers and streams in the northern freshwater portion of the Potomac River, which spans parts of Maryland, Virginia, and West Virginia.

Brent recently joined Waterkeepers from across the United States in the second phase of Waterkeeper Alliance’s PFAS monitoring initiative. A major effort to fill water quality data gaps and strengthen the push for tougher regulations, expanded research and improved treatment technologies to remove these toxic forever chemicals from our drinking water and environment.

The newly released report builds on the 2022 phase one findings, which revealed PFAS contamination in 83% of tested rivers, lakes, and streams. In the second phase, sampling focused on sites downstream of wastewater treatment [00:01:00] plants and biosolids application fields in disproportionately impacted communities.

The overall results were striking 95% of sites downstream from treatment plants, and 80% of those near biosolids fields showed elevated PFAS levels.

In addition to his work on PFAS, Brent has also developed a very cool and innovative program that uses drone technology to identify and investigate sources of water pollution in the Potomac and Shenandoah Rivers. Brent, thank you so much for being here today.

Brent Walls: Thank you, Tom, for inviting me.

Thomas Hynes: Absolutely. I’ve been a fan of what you’ve been doing and just seeing your work with the drones. I mean, we’re gonna talk a lot about more than that today, but I’m excited to meet you and have you here today to get things started.

I’d love you to tell me about your river and your watershed and why you do this work. I had mentioned to you earlier today that I lived in DC which has the Potomac River, but I think you’re in a slightly [00:02:00] different area than that. Not quite running past the Watergate building as I think of the Potomac river 

Brent Walls: Yeah. I live up river in the Hagerstown Williamsport community. So it’s about an hour and a half, I guess, east of the DC area. Yeah, so the Potomac River, the nation’s river that’s been commonly referred to. There’s roughly 5 million or more people that live in the watershed.

It’s made up of Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania. And obviously DC of course. It’s about 14,600 square miles of watershed, so it’s a pretty big watershed and our organization has divided up that watershed into three areas. The upper Potomac, which is my part of the river. And that’s about 6,800 square miles.

It’s a beautiful river. It is starting [00:03:00] to have its comeback. I would have to say. There are areas of the watershed river systems that were commonly figured out to be dead.

There’s been a lot of great advances over the years to combat those issues. And we have a lot of bounce back. We have a lot of natural spawning trout species and some of those waters.

And so there’s definitely a resurgence of things coming back. There’s new programs to try and put freshwater mussels in the upper part of the watershed. And we have our own mussel program in the lower part of the watershed that we’ve been working on for the past few years. So there’s a lot of great work that’s going on, but there’s still a long way to go.

There are still a lot of emerging issues and we are working on and trying to make some changes. 

Thomas Hynes: I want to talk to you about a few things, but you know before we met, I kind of knew who you were because of some of the press that you’ve had, uh, around using drone technology.

I wrote the annual report one year and I felt like the biggest story of any Waterkeeper was, and the biggest coverage was what you were doing. 

Brent Walls: It was pretty crazy. 

Thomas Hynes: Yeah, I bet. And I, and we’ll get to it. And I’ll just say too, that like, I was probably [00:05:00] like a year into the movement at that time and a year into the job and, I’ve worked in environmental stuff before, but I remember like hearing that you’re using drones to like spot, you’ll tell us more specifically, but using drones to like work on pollution issues and it was like, oh man, that’s so cool. I was like, that’s such a cool idea. 

So, for the benefit of all, everyone listening who didn’t read the impact report that I wrote in 2022, take me through that program and what led to that.

Brent Walls: Well, as a river keeper we’re always trying to gather that information while we’re investigating a pollution issue. And, the best evidence out there is visual evidence. The second best evidence and sometimes very necessary for

a court case for any kinda litigation is water quality data. But a lot of times you can’t get that water quality data and sometimes you can’t even get the visual because of where [00:06:00] the pollution source is coming from.

Especially if there’s an emerging pollution issue or something of that it’s happening now and you wanna that image now. And so I’ve always been a geek, a nerd tech kind of person, right? And I started playing around with drones. I had this really old drone and attached a camera to it.

I just thought, this is a great idea because we can immediately send it up in the air and we can gather information.

And so we started down that path and I developed a program for the organization, which requires our pilots to have a license part 1 0 7 license, and requires us to follow a certain set of rules above and beyond what the FAA requires. That way we can really alleviate any of those issues [00:07:00] of personal trespass or the stigma of this eye in the sky that’s prying and, on my backyard kind of thing.

So we had to write these rules that really showed that we care and we don’t wanna interfere with people’s private lives, but these pollution sources are a huge impact to our rivers and streams, and we need that visual evidence. And , we have been able to use this program to capture images and use those images alone to file a a complaint under the Clean Water Act.

And that generated the negotiation where they actually cleaned it up. We captured images of an illegal discharge and the permitted discharge [00:08:00] had major discoloration and the images showed that they were in clear violation of state, federal clean water laws.

And we negotiated and they put in a. $250,000 five stage sand filtration system. The first aggregate company that I know of around that actually put in a sand filtration system for their discharge. And in fact, they’re now using that water from that sand filtration system back into the processing.

Thomas Hynes: Wow.

Brent Walls: And so it’s helped them out a great deal. Really showcased our ability to use the tools, all tools at our disposal to try and stop pollution. And we’ve been doing it ever since.

And I still to this day, am teaching at a couple different colleges in Maryland showing students how to pass the 1 0 7 and do it environmentally. 

Thomas Hynes: That’s so cool. I love, I don’t know, I just love sticking it to polluters and I love using novel approaches and I love teaching others [00:09:00] how to do that.

So, Brent, we’re talking here today about PFAS and obviously the big news here with Waterkeeper Alliance is that we have released the second phase of our PFAS monitoring initiative.

This one’s helping to identify contamination in, you know, more disproportionately impacted frontline communities. But it’s, you know, a continuation of the work that, uh. We all did. Really, you waterkeepers all did, back in 2022. And I just want to hear a little bit more about your experience this time around and, and what this initiative has been both for upper Potomac Riverkeeper but just sort of the Waterkeeper movement at large.

Brent Walls: Oh, thanks. Um, we’re super excited about this report coming out and it was a unique opportunity to collect. So water quality data that actually [00:10:00] really fits into our current, um, stop the PFAS campaign here in the Potomac Watershed. We are actually focused on bio solids, and we are focused on how bio solids are impacting farm fields and connecting to streams and what that impact is.

And so it was a great opportunity to dive into a little bit deeper into where the bio solids are going, where the farm fields are, how it’s connected to the wastewater treatment plants, and then, you know, putting out the passive monitors. And then, watching them, checking on them, it was, uh, I think it’s gonna be a great project.

And I did have a look at some of the results already, which I won’t be, um, sharing those just yet, so I’ll wait till the report to come out. But it’s remarkable that there is an impact. It shows an impact and, um, you know, it [00:11:00] fits with our messaging. And I think it’s gonna be useful when we communicate with farmers about why they should have the right to know of what’s in the bio solids before it’s put on their farm fields.

They should have the tools to make the decision. And right now they do not have those tools. Yeah, they’re not told the truth. They’re given junk science. And so, you know, we wanna shed light on that. And actually being out in the river and collecting the samples. Funny story. I actually had to get new passive samplers and the housing that they go in because we had vandalism.

Thomas Hynes: Oh my goodness.

Brent Walls: Uh, people came and they completely took ’em, cut the lines, the whole nine yards. And so we had to move to a different location. So, uh, they didn’t get vandalized. Um, so that we can actually have some, some recoverable results. And I did a set in West Virginia, and then I also did a set [00:12:00] in Frederick County of Maryland.

Mm-hmm. So I did both sets. One for Dean Najuoks, the Potomac River Keeper, and then one in my area for the upper potomac

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. I mean, and I will just say, you know. From my vantage point, this initiative in both its phases, it really speaks to the unique value proposition that the Waterkeeper movement offers because we are distributed across the country, across the world.

And for the purposes of this conversation, this is obviously just a US based initiative for now, but that you know, that we have all of you wonderful independent, you know, fierce water defenders out there saying, hell yeah, I’ll get out there in my boat and I’ll test, you know, and, and that we can, we can provide this data from the upper Potomac, out west, in the middle of the country.

The southeast, you know, it’s. You know, again, I, I’m, I’m not from the outside looking in. I’m in the inside looking in, but it just, it, it really does speak to a unique quality of the Waterkeeper movement that [00:13:00] we have so many great dedicated people all over the country and all over the world coordinating, , with one another to, to deliver these results.

And I just, you know, uh. Totally candidly, just think it’s very awesome.

Brent Walls: Yeah, exactly. I mean it, and we need that kind of information. You know, we need to be able to say to folks here locally that, look, it’s not just in our watershed, it’s in a number of different places. It may not be as bad as somewhere else, or it may be worse than somewhere else, but it is a systemic problem.

And that’s why they need to pay attention. And , that’s why people need to take action, and then ask questions.

Thomas Hynes: So tell me about how PFAS is impacting your watershed. I know that you took part in our first national survey of PFAS report from 2022 and have participated in phase two as well. So just tell me about how that’s impacting your watershed and what you guys are all doing about it

Brent Walls: sure. And, PFAS is such a big issue. And it’s a complicated issue. PFAS, [00:14:00] Polyflor alkaloid substances about 15,000 different manmade combinations. Two of the most toxic or PFOS and PFOA.

Derivatives of firefighting foam and the Teflon from DuPont and 3M. 

So you have these huge chemicals and persistent. They last in the environment forever, and they’re everywhere because they’ve been around for the last 50 years in so many different products that we use on a day-to-day basis.

And in fact, there is PFAS in every single one of us. Across the world. Wow. To some degree I’ve even had my blood tested for PFAS and I’m at the median level. And so it’s there. And I was in the military and I used A triple F to put out trainings for putting out fires on jet aircraft.

Thomas Hynes: Right. 

Brent Walls: So PFAS is everywhere and it’s a complicated issue, and it’s no different here in the Potomac Watershed. We have so many different sources. The hot button source are your [00:15:00] military base is best because PFOS such a toxic form that PFOS was used in firefighting foam saturated soils and have migrated into the watershed, into the rivers and streams and contaminated fish species.

You have waste or treatment plants are a major source, of PFAS and they’re receiving effluent from everything that we use from day to day, anything that’s waterproof that we put on our bodies or that we use in our day-to-day lives has some form of PFAS in it.. All the detergents that are stain resistant or stain lifting or whatever else dishwasher, laundry soap, that kind of thing, all has PFAS in it.

And so all of that goes into the treatment plant, add a layer. Then we have industrial sources that also go into our public waste or treatment plants. We have a lot of PFAS in bio solids that are applied to farm fields that has immense [00:16:00] amount of PFAS in it. And so that’s saturated into the soils. It’s being taken up by the crops that are grown on those fields and then brought into the food systems and the foods that we eat, meat, dairy, and everything else.

And then there’s runoff from those farm fields. Into our rivers and streams added to the wastewater treat plant effluent. And so that creates PFAS in the rivers and streams that our fish species are inundated with and have extremely high levels of PFAS in their tissue. And so fish consumption advisories are a big thing for us.

We’ve been working on PFAS issues in Potomac for oh since 2017. We’ve been researching it, studying it, collecting samples. We have our own standard operating procedures that we use to collect samples, but it’s expensive and so we can’t do a whole lot at one time and we have to look for the funding to be able to do that.

It’s $400 a [00:17:00] sample

most times. Is that for the test kit from, for the test 

kit or to send it to a lab and you really wanna have that high lab 

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. 

Brent Walls: Quality data. right, . 

If you’re gonna use it in any kinda legal purposes or, or whatsoever. 

And so PFAS is definitely an issue and we were focused on originally fish consumption.

And we’ve kind of, we’re still, pushing on that obviously, but we really have refocused or retooled on biosolids. That is a huge issue for us. It is across the nation and across the world really. Where sludge from, a waste treatment plant, that’s all the leftover solids is then taken from that treatment plant and applied to farms as a fertilizer.

Now, right now there are rules and regulations over certain metals for that sludge or biosolids before it gets put on farm fields, but there are no limits whatsoever for PFAS. And there’s a lot of issues that [00:18:00] are going on that are starting to crop up Maine and Michigan and Texas and a number of different states where they’re starting to see the impact of biosolids on the farm fields, contaminated milk, contaminated beef, and so it’s, our concern is the massive liability.

One to our farmers and their way of life, and then the impact and contamination of our food systems, obviously. I mean, those are two huge concerns, but it’s if we eliminate the bio solids. Then the farmers are gonna have to spend a ton more on commercial fertilizers, which sometimes isn’t all that great either on our environment.

But they’re gonna be out the money. And then if we have farmers that have too much PFAS in soils, they’re not gonna have the ability to grow anything on that field for a while. And so then what are they gonna do for income? Right. And so there’s this really question as to how do we do this?

How do we work it? 

 Thomas Hynes: And, and I mean, I [00:19:00] mean this isn’t the question for this, but what do we do? I mean, what is someone listening? I mean, we do encourage people to do this, to write to our elected reps, and  we facilitate that and I work on that personally. I know that that’s not nothing.

Um, but what else, what would you like to see done?

Brent Walls: Have you ever heard of the PFAS cycle? The PFAS cycle. And so it’s like you’re producing and the commercial entities are continuously producing products with PFAS

And that goes into the system, and then it goes into our treatment plants, it goes into our rivers and our streams, into our groundwater from biosolids And then we uptake that water to drink it. We uptake that water to spray and irrigate our fields. And then it just starts to cycle. And so what you have to do is you gotta put a wrench in that cycle.

You gotta stop it at all the little bits and crannies. And when you start putting limits on PFAS regulations on PFAS, then the industry is gonna find other solutions. It’s gonna force them to find [00:20:00] other solutions. It’s gonna force states to find other solutions. It’s gonna force commercial the residents, the, the population out there to make different choices in the products that they purchase.

And so what we need is we need, we have drinking water limits now. Thank goodness for public sources of water. What we need is limits on bio solids. We need product bans in this country. We need to ban products that we use every single day that goes into our treatment plants that have high levels of PFAS.

We need to make sure that all the manufacturers out there that do use and that do use PFAS in their process pretreated before it goes to anywhere else. And then we have to have waste load allocation limits for our 

wastewater 

treatment plants.

That’s a harder nut to crack because, we don’t wanna pass the cost down of upgrading every single waste of treatment plant out there to the consumer, right?

So there’s gotta be ways to do this. And biosolids are not gonna be able to be used on farm fields if they have [00:21:00] high levels of PFAS because the, EPA recommended health advisory is one parts per billion, And so in order to accomplish that you have to start reducing

the PFAS in your products that goes into the treatment system. So you have all these little sources that you have to start notching away. One of the big sources is military bases and airports. So that’s has to have some focused energy to clean up those sites 

Thomas Hynes: Yeah, we had talked about that in our sort of one of our comm missives last summer with the DOD and I think the funding, it suggested we did the math. It would take like 160 years at the rate they were suggesting to spend. And our, our little tagline was like, it shouldn’t take forever to clean up forever chemicals like, you know move a little quicker than that.

That’s, it’s encouraging what you’re, in a way, I mean, it’s, it’s very, let’s be clear, this is a very [00:22:00] grim situation and it’s not, uh, there’s not a lot of signs of hope in here, but , what I’m taking away though is like, you seem to have a lot of clarity on like , in several ways that this can be addressed

Brent Walls: there is a silver lining to some of this actually, and that silver lining is the fact that since 1980 the Clean Water Act is one, has been wanting to completely stop all pollution coming from wastewater 

treatment plants and effluent into our rivers and streams. Right. We achieved that. I mean, way past 1980.

And the technology is out there, but it’s not affordable and there hasn’t been a reason to push that technology to be implemented at all the treatment plants, across the United States. But PFAS is such a problem right now, and it’s focused, recognized as a problem ’cause of the impact of the human body.

And all the different ailments that come with it, that in order to remove that PFAS, you have to put in these high level treatment systems [00:23:00] upgrades that not only remove PFAS because it’s just a, it is a big molecule, but it’s down to the parts per trillion size levels, it’s gonna remove all the other pollutants that are out there.

It’s gonna remove the pesticides and herbicides. It’s gonna remove the other chemicals that are in our effluent that’s going into our rivers and streams that aren’t normally captured. It’s gonna remove all of that. ’cause you have to filter down to the level of PFAS. And if we look at trying to filter our water to remove PFAS, we’re gonna be removing all those other pollutants that we’ve been wanting for the longest time to remove.

Thomas Hynes: Sounds like a bargain to me. 

Brent Walls: It sounds like a bit of a bargain, but it’s gonna be a huge cost. And it’s that how do we achieve that without such a huge cost going down to the consumers.

I mean, eventually we’re all gonna have to pay in some way, but DuPont. They’re the ones that put this out there

Thomas Hynes: and we’re paying now, I mean, we’re paying in health costs, we’re paying, like it’s, and I think that’s [00:24:00] the thing that I, that’s a drum that I beat a lot is like we hear like, oh, it’s too expensive. And it’s like, Hey, we’re actually. In a lot of venues, we are paying in pollution costs, we are paying in health costs, we are paying in lost, business opportunities,

 so it just depends on how you want, like do you wanna pay now a lot or do you want to pay little for the rest, slightly less for the rest of your life.

I know where I stand on that, but, but yeah it’s, so 

Brent Walls: how do we monetize the health costs? 

Thomas Hynes: Right. 

Brent Walls: That’s impacting to us, right? Right. How do we turn that around to say, well, we’re already paying the price and if we were to do all these other, invest in all these other treatment technologies, we would reduce the health impact and then our health costs in the long run.

Thomas Hynes: Right.

Brent Walls: But, that’s the age old question that we’ve always been trying to tackle.

Thomas Hynes: So Brent, I’m hearing, all of this great work that you’re doing on this super treacherous and dangerous toxic chemical that’s affecting everyone in a variety of harmful and awful ways. And I’m so glad that you’re out there doing this work. I’m so glad that you’re out [00:25:00] there with the other waterkeepers and advocates outside of the Waterkeeper Alliance movement

and environmental advocates who are sounding the alarm, protecting us, beating that drum, whatever metaphor you want to use. But what’s frustrating to me, and I’m sure even more frustrating to you is a story that you had shared recently. That, a, correct me if I’m wrong, a $350,000 EPA grant to study PFAS, what we’re talking about, was abruptly canceled

 but how, like, how could that have happened? What’s next? How is that impacting your work? Just tell us more about that.

Brent Walls: Yes. It was pretty devastating. We, typically do not put in for federal grants. I mean, we really haven’t had too many in our long history of fundraising. But we attempted the last couple of times to the Green and Healthy Home Initiative through EPA and

our [00:26:00] focus was on PFAS and we recognize that there’s a huge concern for communities in rural environments because of the biosolids being spread in farm fields. And yes, there is limits for drinking water in the public, setting public water, but there’s really no attention being made to those that are rural environments on private wells.

And looking at the impacts of PFAS pollution on them

we were alerted to  a company Synagro, who is managing biosolids in Westmoreland County Virginia. And they wanted to expand the acreage of fields to apply biosolids to like 1900 square acres. Just one permit for, to expand to.

And this is a very rural area. It’s slightly depressed area low income area. Kind of fits some of the Jedi justice [00:27:00] diversity, equity, inclusion kind of, metrics. And we recognized that they needed some assistance. One of the best ways to do that is to gather the data, gather the information, but Virginia State Department of Environment Quality has been ignoring PFAS and Bio Solids.

And so we put in for this grant through green Healthy Home Initiative, we were totally shocked that we were awarded $350,000. Absolutely shocked. And what this would’ve done this money was to test people’s private wells for PFAS to test soils on the same fields that was being spread on, to test the rivers and streams downstream from those fields, really do a full workup of the area to kind of understand the impact to the environment and impact to the community itself.

Do a an exposure questionnaire. To where we can understand and then connect with that community to say, look, these are the sources of PFAS. This is how you’re getting exposed. This is what’s [00:28:00] going on at the farm fields. And have that health assessment and understanding. And it would’ve gone a long way at this grant.

And the new administration came in all the grants being frozen here and there and then they told us. Wait, hold up.

Yes, you got awarded. But wait. And then they said, okay, go ahead. Submit all the information, submit the proposal, submit the budget. So we did, and then they said, okay, wait, it might be frozen.

And then they said, oh, hey, we have the cash. Let’s go ahead and submit it right now and we we’ll get it to you. And then seven days later, sorry, everything’s been canceled. Even the program has been shut down completely. And we’re just like, oh. Are you serious? Right. I mean, we had this community that is ripe for, I mean, we’ve had people on the ground already connecting to the county administration, connecting to the farmers already, really making strides to connect with the community so we can engage this this [00:29:00] project.

And then the rug got pulled out from underneath us. We’re trying figure to come up some funding to do just even a small portion of that project.

Uh, so yeah, , it was a bit devastating,

Thomas Hynes: this is why, this is a donation run organization and organizations like Brent’s and upper Potomac River Keeper are doing this work. And, aside from calling your senators and your representatives and imploring them to do something about, this funding and our tax dollars is going to protect us, which seems like a pretty good use of money.

This organization is donation funded so they, they can receive donations. And I encourage people to visit Brent’s website and give if you can. I mean, I’m not, I’m no shame in saying that. But Brent , it’s been very illuminating and in a way discouraging speaking to you but also very encouraging because you have a real clear-eyed sense on the problem.

You have a menu of solutions and your story is just very interesting to me. I, I’ve spoken to [00:30:00] 75 waterkeepers one-on-one for this and for other profile work. And your story is unique and I don’t hear a lot of unique stories and in a good way, there, there’s kind of a common thread. 

But uh, it’s been really great speaking to you today and and on, just on behalf of, as I say this to a lot of guests, but just like as a citizen of earth as a father, and as just like a human being I appreciate , all your doing out there to protect your community and just the world at large.

Brent Walls: Well, thank you, Tom, and it’s great to have somebody take an interest and help us to voice that interest so that others can, um, see and hear what we’re doing and that it makes a difference. That it, it does have an impact. I mean, I get comments from community members and individuals that, you know, if you guys weren’t there, we never would’ve known there was an issue.

Thomas Hynes: That’s true.

Brent Walls: , So it’s very important to, , expand and talk to everyone that you can about the issues and then have folks like yourself to really [00:31:00] highlight what we’re doing. So I appreciate that. Thank you.

Thomas Hynes: I appreciate it too. Thank you so much for being here today. 

Brent Walls: Thank you.

Thomas Hynes:  Our next guest is Luis Cruz. Luis is part of the conservation team running Latino Conservation Week at Hispanic Access Foundation. I. Waterkeeper Alliance recently collaborated with Hispanic Access Foundation on the second phase of our PFAS monitoring initiative to help identify contamination in disproportionately impacted frontline communities.

In his role, Luis helps Latino serving community organizations gain access to the resources available to them through their regional partners. He received both his undergraduate degree in biological sciences and his master’s in conservation biology from the University of Rhode Island. Following graduate school, Luis worked for three years as an environmental scientist at a wastewater treatment plan in Rhode Island.

Now living in Marina, California, you can find him in his free time volunteering at the Monterey Bay Aquarium, talking about the ocean with anyone willing to listen. Luis, thank you so much for being here today. 

Luis Cruz:  thank you, Thomas. It is a pleasure being here. I appreciate the opportunity to be able to share a little bit about my story and also share about how I see some of the impacts, particularly when it comes to PFAS in our waters. 

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. Well, I’m so excited to hear and am so excited to hear, just your story and your perspective. Let’s start at the beginning. I mean, from California to Rhode Island and back to California.

What drew you to pursue first year undergrad degree? And I understand that URI would be the place to do it. But what drew you to, to this clearly this love of water and and I have more questions about the zoo the zoo, but the aquarium, the place that I love. So what drew you to this line of study?

Luis Cruz: Yeah. Really, like, I always like to say I grew up in San Jose, California, very urban jungle. Very little outdoor space that I get to enjoy and celebrate. But it was actually, it was a camping trip. My [00:02:00] first camping trip to Yosemite, and actually we’re doing a little rafting trip down one of the creeks.

And it was at that moment that I realized that this is where I wanna be. This is where I, I enjoy this is where I was supposed to be. It was in nature , and I came home and I told my mom that all I wanted to be was a park ranger. I wanna have the little hats and just be able to call the Yosemite, or even the outdoor space, my office.

Thomas Hynes: Yeah.

Luis Cruz: So it was something that from that moment, but unfortunately just with everything that happened, I just didn’t know how to get to where I wanted to be. Fast forward 28 years or so, or 25 or so years later, I had an opportunity with my wife to move to Rhode Island. And it was when I driving over the Newport Bridge over the coast in Narragensset Bay, and this is, okay.

I feel this is where I need to be. And that’s just kind of what started the process. Originally my goal was to be a biology teacher, high school biology teacher, just to share some of my love for nature and the environment. But it was actually, it was a marine botany class that I took a marine algae class that really got me interested in ecology and marine and coastal ecosystems and particularly coastal wetlands is something that I am particularly interested in and was a passion of mine, which led me to continue my academic career as a conservation biologist with an emphasis really on like

how to incorporate my love for nature, but also understand that the issues that are involved, particularly when it comes to connecting that with underrepresented communities. Yeah. Communities of color.

I was realizing that there was this gap there’s this disconnect that unfortunately a lot of the research that we were doing or a lot of the great data and information and resources that was happening in all these amazing schools, not just at University of Rhode Island

was not making its way to the communities [00:04:00] in a way that was culturally relevant, but also in the language that they spoke. And that, for me, was where I kind of jumped in. I’m bilingual. I speak both English and Spanish, and I saw that as a tool for me to really connect that information and that my love for nature with communities that may not had an opportunity otherwise.

Working three years at a wastewater treatment plant, I got to really see the background. I like to call it the capital S science. Yeah. And it really taught me a little bit of what that looks like on a regulatory and on a on that level as well.

Thomas Hynes: So you went to work at a wastewater treatment plant right after your master’s. 

Luis Cruz: Yes, it was right after it just, my graduate ceremony was in 2019. Okay. Right before COVID. It was a year before COVID.

So it was really it was a very difficult time for a lot of people, particularly in our space. But I was fortunate enough to find this position through a lot of the connections that I made in graduate school. I got to work with three amazing water scientists, women in the field that really I got to learn a lot from and understand and also really it provided a perspective on me for what it means to be

a person of color in conservation, what does that mean? What that representation means, not just for the rest of my communities looking at me and saying that, someone that looks and talks like me, that speaks Spanish can also be a water scientist as well. So it’s something that also really attracted me to that.

My background always revolved around environmental education, environmental outreach, so it was a very good way to understand what the background, what the capital as science looks like, and , how that impacts our communities as well. 

Thomas Hynes: I fully show my own ignorance on these conversations and I make no bones about it.

I didn’t know what PFAS was until I started working in this capacity about four or five years ago had worked, whatever, this is my life story. And I take that as sort of a proxy for, the layman or the civilian or whatever, the Joanne and Joe Q Public that I think it’s coming more into the vernacular these days.

But obviously you were in that capital s science. When did you first become aware of PFAS as this, growing and obviously very persistent , threat , to clean water. 

Luis Cruz: Well really it probably started around undergrad and it was actually, it’s , like your first marine biology course that you would take at an undergrad college, and we were talking about different pollutants that are occurring in particular, specifically in there against the bay, which is the largest bay in Rhode Island.

It was through that where you start to learn a little bit or more about, the, you start to hear those terms, like forever chemicals, the different forms of PFAS and how [00:07:00] it, how it all began, where, you know, , it’s funny to think about how you can trace back PFAS through time in here, in particular in the United States to, two.

Major companies. , Two companies that really kind of started that. And unfortunately because of that, it seemed like that information was never being released to the public, not understanding what the impacts and the effects of that as I think as a public, becomes a little bit more informed of those.

It then became a different issue. Now it was like, okay, so how can you relate? PFAS if you were to break it down, I wouldn’t be able to pronounce that word and I already know, but that it, I, I feel this is, I think maybe speaks to a larger issue about how to communicate science effectively.

And I, I think that that PFAS is one of those spaces where we did not understand as a community what that meant. , I imagine if you were to just to ask a general [00:08:00] person, would you like a chemical in your drinking water? Right. Stop. And they would say, no, obviously not. Yeah. You do not want anything.

Full stop. That’s it. Yeah. But when then you start to think, okay, well what about a chemical that is sprayed on the packaging of your food to make it less sticky? What if , your breakfast sandwich from Starbucks is now coated in PFAS. What is that? We start, you start breaking it down

in that sense, I think is really what really kind of started that process of understanding. And then I got a really good understanding of how PFAS is ubiquitous throughout the environment. Working as the wastewater treatment plant, we start to realize even within our systems, we are well resources at the plant.

And understanding that even just developing the process to analyze the levels of PFAS in wastewater was very expensive, which meant that it’s only gonna be translated to the rate payers who are paying for that. So then you, as a, as an organization, we had to come up with understanding rates. Yes your rate might be going up.

But understanding that, because now we have PFAS that we wanted to start to mitigate, start to remove and come up different process. So we had to kind of find ways to really communicate with the community. Why removing and managing PFAS is so important. Then not to mention all our manufacturing partners in our district, that the, wastewater treatment plan

come to realize that, a better way to remove PFAS, or at the very least help mitigate it, is to start thinking it more at the source, right. Rather than trying to remove it through the process of the water treatment. So it was really during that time that I got to understand the real impacts of that

I am proud to say that the organization the Wastewater Treatment Plan, has now just developed and created their own PFAS Analyzer lab in New England

So this is one of the first in New [00:10:00] England and that plant is gonna be analyzing wastewater from across the region at that lab to get a better understanding of what is the most cost effective way to manage those and mitigate the impact of PFAS and not only yeah, in our environment, but also, and more importantly for, I think for the impact on humans.

In our drinking water, in our packaging. And I think that’s a one of the ways that I was able to kind of really to understand that impact. 

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. Okay, so then you worked at this you went to school in Rhode Island. You had this job for a few years, and then you moved back to California and now you’re working with Hispanic Access Foundation.

Now tell me how this feels like the same issue, because this is like going from like a wastewater treatment plant to like community outreach. , You know, you’re dealing with the same issue, but in like a very different way.

, How is PFAS and other things coming into your work now? 

Luis Cruz: Yeah. I think more now than ever is [00:11:00] education. Educating our community, educating, elected officials, educating, policy makers and foundations. And I think that’s, right now is where I’m the most way that I’m PFAS is like incorporating into the work that I’m doing, working in conservation particularly in like outdoor recreation

and ensuring that these spaces are safe to swim, play, enjoy recreating is something that is important to me in understanding that PFAS is one of the pollutants of that environment. 

that could be affecting those spaces and those opportunities. I still to this day, I consider myself an ecologist more than anything. If you were to say, Luis, what do you say? I’m an ecologist, even though I think in that way, I think more in systems, how things work together and understanding , our water ecosystem is in trouble, not just from PFAS, 

but in other pollutants, microplastics, and other issues impacting, and again, it is just how do [00:12:00] we bridge that gap of information, in preparation for our talk today. I was kind of going back through some of my notes , some of the articles that I was reading on PFAS, and again, it comes to this idea of like science communication and understanding that as a lay person, I wouldn’t be able to understand a lot of this information that is out there,

this analytical information, I look at a spreadsheet of like all data, water, data analysis. It doesn’t connect with me. So my job now essentially is making that digestible, making it appropriate culturally ’cause understanding that different cultures gain information differently and understanding how we can best, utilize those ways to kind of really ensure that they’re getting the right information translating into Spanish. That’s now one of my biggest, I think for me going to school I have no technical terms all in English, so just now Right. Going through that and like even just translating  that information into to Spanish, which my first language was Spanish.

that is something that I am, I’m working on because you see that there’s a disconnect. There’s not an understanding. We, like I said, I think , if you were to ask, any person either only speak Spanish , if they want anything in their water, they’re gonna tell you no. It’s just understanding how we can best relay that information in a way that is like, like I think I mentioned it’s appropriate culturally, but also in the language that they speak.

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. You had said something to me when we had spoken earlier. Like, you’re like, okay, so what does this mean for the community? Like, a graph means nothing to me. And the translation is such a great point too, and also you said something that I was trying to say.

You said it better, which is like, just so we’re clear, like PFAS is not the only threat to clean water. And I think everybody knows that, but it’s definitely worth definitely worth repeating I don’t wanna call it attention or what, but one of the things that strikes me about this conversation, and it’s a thing that I think about a lot, 

It’s sort of this concept of like access or park equity or like green space equity and just, your right to these bodies of water or these spaces, the outdoors, the thing that inspired you. It was public lands that inspired you to go on your academic and professional career.

It’s what brought us to this conversation today and that origin story I think is true of a lot of people. and it’s hard enough , to get that access, to make that fair, to make sure that everybody can enjoy those spaces, and then to have. Okay, so we got you to the water. But be careful in the water because there’s this forever chemical that, you know is never gonna degrade.

That’s like, I don’t even know if there’s a question in there other than that’s a real, that’s a real bear. Yeah. 

Luis Cruz: And I think, and unfortunately with, I mean the work, we’re we do this work and I do this work right now, and it’s not in a vacuum.

The political climate has really, I think has impacted, and for me [00:15:00] now, I think I see this as a as a next step for me in my professional career is how to inspire the younger generation to stay in conservation. I think ultimately whether it is water, whether it is land, whether it is forest versus desert, I think

The youth that are now in the spaces that are looking to stay in conservation might be discouraged with what is happening now. And I think for me personally and while my focus is for the Latino youth to get into that space, to find that pathway the pathway that I I benefited from.

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. 

Luis Cruz: I just wanna be able to make sure that those pathways, those opportunities are still available. And I do this through the work that I’m doing, like enjoying the outdoor space, enjoying the water, enjoying clean water.

Clean air, clean land. And I think and like I think you spoke to something that really kind of, that is something that resonates through me is idea is having meaningful moments in nature.

Unfortunately, what makes us kind of, gives us a reminder maybe quite dramatic is like major weather events, wildfires, hurricanes,

Thomas Hynes: yeah.

Luis Cruz: Reminds us again that we’re still very connected to nature and I think it’s just the outside of those moments, we have to understand that, there. There are other issues impacting. There are other ways that we’re gonna be connected to this. And I think water is one of those ways that is ubiquitous throughout our entire, and I think we don’t understand that.

Understand even if I live in the middle of a big city, that I’m still connected to water in a certain way. Me the way I’m connected is through my drinking water. But it might be different from someone that lives in the CRM Mounds. They’re connected to water through their fishing the lake that they’re fishing or the river that they’re fishing in, and understanding how to best communicate

differently to those communities. What I would talk to a community in San Francisco about water and clean water might be different to how I speak to a community in Lake Tahoe who is more concerned about maybe recreating and stuff like that. So just understanding what that  means. And I think my time as

I like to say now I’m a social scientist, not a, now I’m not an ecologist anymore. A natural scientist is incorporating that. Like, how can we do this? I like to think about like, in a lot of my graduate work, we were doing a lot of citizen science projects. Very natural science, citizen science projects.

And I think it’s not always been the best way, how can we incorporate that interaction in social science in particular when it comes to conservation? Understanding how your water in your community can be impacted by some of these pollutes, like microplastic, like PFAS, like excess nutrients.

If you’re in an agriculture community, you’re thinking about phosphorus in water ’cause that’s the limiting factor,

But if I live in a coastal community, it’s nitrogen.

So again, it’s just understanding where each community, 

is different and how to best communicate those issues to those each one. 

Thomas Hynes: I was thinking about what you were saying about getting, children involved and younger people involved in this work and, one [00:18:00] sad thing is you could say to them, well, the PFAS will be there when you get outta college and get to work. ’cause they’ll be around for forever. But you know, there is this element of it, like even you were telling me, like even when it gets, you said it’s energetically and financially intensive to treat and remove PFAS, but you don’t really move it because you have this byproduct, right?

You have this, is it sludge? 

Luis Cruz: Yeah. They call it almost like a bio sludge. . So this is essentially the byproduct. Like you mentioned 

Tom, it is very expensive, very, resource and extensive process to remove, or at the very least, mitigate ’cause you can al we can never, always remove it because just how because of the chemical itself.

But the best way to do it is to essentially just leak it out, filter it all the way out, and, but you’re left with the sludge, this bio sludge, right? This sludge that oftentimes makes it to our landfills. Sometimes in the past they’ve used the sludge, they treated it and use it as a, [00:19:00] almost like a bio fertilizer in some places.

Thomas Hynes: Uh, but that gets in your food, right? 

Luis Cruz: Exactly. And I think that’s, and one of, one of the first indications of PFAS,

was to study out in Maine that they were finding PFAS in breast milk. Because it’s just getting into the water supply, but also. Because of , how animals were grazing on lands that were treated with PFAS and then that was getting into the milk and then the mothers were consuming it and they were transferring that to my kids.

Thomas Hynes: Oh my gosh.

Luis Cruz: So it’s hard, it’s not easy, but like what I said, that sludge, it’s oftentimes you have to put it somewhere. Unfortunately, that oftentimes goes into communities that have not been resources. And I’m not just talking about communities of color. We’re talking about rural agriculture communities.

I was reading a story about a community in Georgia that is near 3M Plant. And they were finding , the discharge from a landfill where they were depositing the sludge essentially [00:20:00] into, was leaking into a local river that was going into community.

Thomas Hynes: Yeah.

Luis Cruz: and they’re finding pfas into the tens of thousands higher than what is recommended or water recommended 

Thomas Hynes: well, that, that rings true, obviously. We at Waterkeeper Alliance, and I don’t mind tooting this horn, , but like a thing that I’m very proud of that I think everyone here should be very proud of is a PFAS testing report that we it was, you know, national from Alaska to Miami, we like to say and landfills

were like I hate to use this word, like ground zero. I mean, it was like you go downstream from a landfill and it was like you’re guaranteed to, not guaranteed, but you know what I mean, like you’re very likely to get what you said, like these exponentially higher levels of PFAS. And it is tragic just in any kind of

pFAS or not? I mean, I live in New York City and we don’t keep our trash here anymore. I mean, we used to, there’s, that’s a whole other podcast episode, but like, we send it to places because we can afford to, and that is like [00:21:00] out of sight outta mind and its own environmental injustice without the PFAS, just even just banana peels or coffee grinds, things that will break down.

Luis Cruz: And we’re seeing this in other spaces too, like we’re seeing down in southern California after the large wildfires 

Thomas Hynes: Oh, of course 

Luis Cruz: So like, so now we have all these buildings burned down.

So what you gonna do with all that material? You’re gonna have to move it and store someplace to get it treated

Thomas Hynes: right.

Luis Cruz: Oftentimes all that burns and. And there’s a lot of chemicals and toxins within that lead, asbestos, PFAS, everything you can think of.

Thomas Hynes: And you’re not asking what’s in the firefighting foam when it, when you’re pouring out the building.

Luis Cruz: Right. And then they, not to mention the firefighting foam and all that. Yeah. 

Yeah. So I guess, but guess with those all, that’s, there’s not gonna stay in the Palisades. That’s not gonna, that stuff is not gonna stay in those communities. Yeah.

Thomas Hynes: Oh God. You’re right.

Luis Cruz: That’s gonna go into communities that are gonna be predominantly communities of color communities and those are the different other ways outside of just we’re all, unfortunately we’re all impacted by PFAS now.

If I was to take a blood sample  from you, Tom, there’s a very high good chance that there’s PFAS in your blood. 

And this is not just in humans. You’re seeing this in, throughout and through animal kingdoms from places and very remote places, all the way into more urban settings.

You’re gonna see PFAS everywhere but unfortunately it’s just so we’re already gonna be impacted now when you include all the sludge and all this other waste coming from this spaces, that’s just even more additive, more impact to these communities. Communities that don’t have the resources, that may not have insurance, may not go to go visit The doctor as much as often may not be educated about what these impacts are and what that means.

And that’s where I hope to be, that bridge. Our organization hopes to be that bridge with partners like Water Alliance and making sure that that information, those resources, make it to those communities, that we can bridge that gap of information, that we can share resources, that we can really [00:23:00] ensure that, , we’re not gonna be able to take it.

We take the PFAS away. Okay. Then the best way we then, how can we make sure that our communities are still real resource and are still making sure that the impact is lessened? Unfortunately that’s just the reality of unfortunately where we live in, but it just some, there’s a lot of ways that I think PFAS and other pollutants can impact communities outside just the point source you drinking from a polluted groundwater or you, and like, there’s impacts as well.

Thomas Hynes: So, Luis, we’ve talked a lot about the problems of PFAS and their, you know, dangerous and persistent and ubiquitous, And this is admittedly a silly question, but I’d like to ask it. If you had a magic wand, if you could flip a switch and you could like, make a change overnight  what would you like to see happen?

And , I think you’re probably gonna say like, get rid of all the PFAS in the world, but like in addition to that, what would help your work  immediately

Luis Cruz: Yeah, you’re right because yeah, I would love to just, just remove pFAS in the world.

But with that in mind, , I think for me, more than anything is information is bridging a gap of information. But also translating into other languages, not just Spanish. We’re a country of immigrants. We’re a country of a lot of different cultures, a lot of different backgrounds,

and being able to get that information to those communities in the language that they speak, that is culturally appropriate. I think it’s just what I would like to see. I would love to see some accountability , from some of those, those polluters , in the past, , I would love to be able to get resources to communities, those communities that have already been infected by PFAS ensuring that they’re well taken care of. We’re seeing a lot of issues, you know, from cancer all the way up to Yeah. You know, other liver, kidney disease, fertility issues and just some of those things [00:25:00] that

if a community is dealing with that, I would love to see those resources and making sure that those communities can recover from this., I would love to, I’m gonna throw a lot at you there, Tom, but I would also love to, to ensure that we’re still enjoying our water. I wanna see access to outdoor space.

I want people to enjoy swimming, fishing, being in and around water. Personally, I am lucky enough that I get to live next to the ocean. Mm-hmm. So I get to hear the ocean when I go walk and take my dog out for a walk. I want other communities and families to be able to enjoy that.

There’s a community here in my county. Castroville is just an agricultural rural community, and it’s unjust that there’s kids that live five minutes from the ocean that have never seen the ocean, that have never been to the water. Yeah. And I wanted to be able to share that because hopefully that would lead to a lifetime of wanting to conserve and protect our water is through [00:26:00] those moments.

And I just wanna make sure that every community has access to those opportunities.

Thomas Hynes: Well, it’s true. And it’s so generous of what you’re saying, and it’s your story, you know, and it’s a hundred other conservationist story from Jane Goodall to, to Attenborough to down the line.

And I don’t mean to take us off topic at the end here, but the most valuable thing we can do. I mean, there’s a million valuable things to do, but a very valuable thing we can do is give children access to nature because it can set a course that we can’t even predict, but actually it can predict that it’ll probably lead to conservation and good stewardship but it begins with children and it’s also just fair and kind.

And I love your story and it’s so kind. The word generous just keeps popping up in my mind. And I really greatly appreciate you being here today.  I know it’s a struggle to get people to water into green spaces in the first place, and then to have this threat lurking under the water, and all these bad actions and these bad actors.

But it’s [00:27:00] just very encouraging and, and inspiring. And to meet somebody , who’s taking on this work. And then you’re also volunteering at the aquarium. I have a 4-year-old who would love to hear you, uh, speak more about that, but we can, we can talk offline about that.

Luis, thank you so much for being here today on behalf of our listeners and, and behalf of, you know, the people of the world, thank you for all the work that you do and it was great speaking with you again.

Luis Cruz: Thank you Thomas, and I appreciate the Water Keep Alliance. I am really proud to be part of an organization that partners with partners like you

an amazing opportunity and I appreciate that and, and know that, latino communities, like any other communities, should have the right to enjoy water.

But I understand that they also very interested in conservation and how we can better be stewards of our lands. And just being able to share that and be able to maybe increase that reach is just something that I’m really proud of. And again, I appreciate. Thank you, Thomas. For allowing me an opportunity to share my story.