Equity In Every Drop: Series Three

Series three includes six episodes focused on the issues and advocacy priorities of our Clean Water Defense campaign.

In the Series 3 premiere of Equity In Every Drop, host Thomas Hynes speaks with Chelsea McDonald, manager of Waterkeeper Alliance’s Clean Water Defense campaign, about how the organization and its network of locally based Waterkeeper groups around the world are addressing threats to clean water. Chelsea explores the wide range of critical issues facing our communities today, including pervasive pollution from plastics, PFAS, 6PPD, and nonpoint sources. She explains how her work with the Clean Water Defense campaign helps shape policies and strategies to combat these environmental challenges at both national and global levels. The conversation touches on the inadequacies of current recycling systems, the rise of microplastics and PFAS in water sources and human bodies, and the complexities of regulating nonpoint source pollution.

Learn how Waterkeeper Alliance and Waterkeeper groups are at the forefront of combating environmental threats like PFAS, the so-called “forever chemicals,” and 6PPD, a toxic compound from vehicle tires. Chelsea explains the serious risks posed by PFAS and how Waterkeeper Alliance, in collaboration with local Waterkeeper groups, is gathering data, supporting litigation, and advocating for stronger regulations. At the same time, they are working together to address 6PPD, a harmful rubber additive that breaks down into 6PPD-quinone, which is devastating to aquatic ecosystems, particularly salmon populations.

The episode also highlights initiatives like the Global Plastics Treaty and the International Plastic Pellet Count, both aimed at tackling plastic pollution. While Chelsea emphasizes the importance of collective action and stronger regulations, she also points to positive signs of industry involvement and growing public awareness. The conversation concludes with Chelsea emphasizing the importance of securing protections for the Eastern Hellbender under the Endangered Species Act. As a key indicator species for ecosystem health, protecting this ancient salamander highlights the vital connections between nature, wildlife, and people.

Stay tuned! New monthly episodes will be posted here and anywhere you get your podcasts. Click “Subscribe” in the episode widget above to access links to popular podcast apps.

Thank you for listening, sharing, and supporting our mission to ensure everyone’s right to clean water. Together, we demand equity in every drop.

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Transcript – S3 Ep1

Thomas Hynes: [00:00:00] Our guest today is Chelsea McDonald. Chelsea is the Clean Water Defense Manager here at Waterkeeper Alliance, where she works with a wide range of stakeholders to defend and enforce clean water laws, standards, and permits and fight against the ever growing threats to clean and safe water.

Prior to joining us here at Waterkeeper Alliance, Chelsea worked at the Department of Justice in the Environment and Natural Resources Division and as a staffer in the United States Senate. In 2023, she received her JD from Georgetown Law as a graduate of their evening program. She received her BA from Lake Forest College in Political Philosophy, Sociology, and Anthropology, and we are so thrilled and lucky to have her here today.

Chelsea, my friend, good to see you. Thank you for being here. 

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah, thank you for having me. Nowhere I would rather be.

Thomas Hynes: Excellent. So, for everyone who doesn’t have the great honor of working with you, can you tell us a little bit about, uh, a little bit more about what you do here at Waterkeeper Alliance as the clean water defense campaign [00:01:00] manager? 

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah. So as campaign manager, which is something any of our campaigning managers would do, I help plan strategies for trying to push both the United States government and global authorities like the UN and other governments forward on the policies that are important to us. For my campaign, that’s clean water defense. So we’re talking a lot about toxics and plastics as well as things like the Waters of the United States rule or the Endangered Species Act and a lot of other different things that come up  

Thomas Hynes: I’m hearing a lot about these things in the news lately too, not just from working here, but it seems like it’s kind of a current issue, so now getting too deep into that.

Let’s just talk I guess in general about some of the threats that you just sort of touched on and I, you know, and I know some of the things you work on. So I’m cheating here a little bit, but just kind of going through them at like a high level. Can we talk a little bit about some of the threats that, let’s just start with plastic pollution poses, and then maybe what [00:02:00] Waterkeeper Alliance is doing about this.

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah. So as you kind of alluded to, there’s like the threats that already exist, and then the future possible threats from what’s happening in the world more politically right now. In terms of what’s currently going on in your water the vast majority of … water sources, if not all, are going to have microplastics in them which I think a lot of times when we think about plastic pollution, we’re thinking about like the very sad photo of the turtle with the straw in his nose, which is obviously bad, but it’s not just these big pieces of plastic that we see in like the media photos. It’s really, which we’re working to address, um, but we’re also working to address what are these called microplastics. They are as they sound. They’re really, really small. They’re inside all of us right now. , and that also means they’re inside wildlife. And also studies have really been showing though that like they’re in so many of our organs, especially There’s a lot of them [00:03:00] inside our brains.

It’s very hard to avoid them, both from food containers or if you’re drinking soda out of a plastic soda bottle, or even just the water that’s coming straight from the tap. And really, all that means is that those are chemicals that are in our bodies that we didn’t evolve with, and so they’re having reactions inside of us.  And we don’t fully know the scope of it right now, but we do know a lot of cancers are coming from it and other concerns. And so we’re really trying to figure out how do we try to fix this problem when it’s already so spread out and so advanced in both our waterways and our bodies.  

Thomas Hynes: I mean we could talk just about this for this whole episode and I don’t want to like give everything away because I know we’re going to talk about this more in a later episode.

But the plastic production is not going down either, right? I mean, it’s like spiking, right? And what I find so concerning, too, is that that that’s happening, the plastic production we know it’s dangerous. We know it’s [00:04:00] in our brains and in our organs and in our babies and in our food and everything else.

And we’re not doing anything to slow down the production of it. And recycling is non-existent, right? 

Chelsea McDonald: Well, so recycling is just not at all what we’ve been led to believe it is, right? Like in terms of all growing up, it was always like the environmental kid in class, which would be me, right? Is like trying to be like, Oh, if we recycle, then the whole world’s saved. Like we just have to do that on Earth Day.

But in reality about, I think it’s less than seven percent of all the plastic that we’ve put in recycling bins is getting recycled. So that’s like a very small amount. And also to think about what it means to recycle plastic. For a lot of it, it means they’re incinerating it, they’re burning it so they can remake it into something else. 

And what about the communities that are living around the incinerators? 

So then there’s arguments around, like, is it even, that 7%, is it even really worthwhile if we’re talking about the people’s health of what, who are, like, [00:05:00] breathing in all of this stuff? And it becomes really, really complicated really fast, versus before it was like, don’t worry if you have that plastic bottle, just put it in the blue bin.

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. And then with that recycled bottle. Maybe I’m maybe I’m thinking about this incorrectly, but it’s like, okay, so you do get it recycled. And then there’s what, like another 7 percent chance that that gets recycled again. And so you just created another toxic product that’s going to stay in the ecosystem. And really, the problem seems to be at the source. But again, I don’t want to dive too deep into it. It’s terrifying and it’s also really for me, like frustrating and it makes me like upset, you know, I guess for lack of a better term that we have this known danger.

And you talked about the plastic straw on the turtle. It used to be the six-pack soda rings choking an otter or something other equally heartbreaking. And it puts all this onus on the individual. It’s like, oh, well, you know, don’t forget to recycle your plastic bottle [00:06:00] when really the problem is so much more pervasive and beyond the consumer’s control, like at their fingertips.

So we know this is a problem again. I’m trying to just temper myself because I would just talk about this for the full time. And I know we want to get to other stuff. What’s being done about this on a local, national, international level? Like, what is Waterkeeper Alliance’s role in taking on this terrible problem? 

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah. So one thing that literally any individual can do to get involved is – Waterkeeper is putting together what we’re calling the International Plastic Pellet Count with PIRG and a few other environmental nonprofits that is going to be happening on May 3rd of 2025.

We’re going to put together a whole resource guide so you’re able to know how to do this, so there’s no barrier to entry. And literally, you and your family, or you alone, can go to a waterway, or a beach, or even a marsh, and go look for plastic pellets.

And it takes literally just as [00:07:00] few as 10 minutes to be able to submit data that then can be used in litigation against plastic companies that are putting, I guess, to take a step back. Pellets are what are being produced by plastic manufacturers that then get shipped around the country and sometimes around the world to be used to make things. 

Thomas Hynes: Is that like nurdles?

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah, Nerdles is another name for them.. 

But so those then aren’t considered pollutants by the Environmental Protection Agency when they spill. So they spill quite a lot. And so we’re trying to really change that, but we need help collecting data throughout the world. And so there’s going to be all sorts of events that day, both from local Waterkeepers and local groups, if you want to join, or even you can just go out alone. So please reach out to me or check our website or PIRG’s website for information on how to get involved with that.

Thomas Hynes: Absolutely. And we’ll include some information about that in the show notes and share information about that. Yeah. And like you said, for anyone interested in that, just keep following us on social [00:08:00] media and, and check our website. Cause we’ll definitely communicate more about that.

Is there anything else that we should, we should touch on with plastic or should we talk about some of the other terrifying things that keep us all up at night?

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah, I would just say that upcoming this summer is going to be another round of negotiations of the Global Plastics Treaty. Waterkeeper Alliance is involved in trying to push all of the countries around the world to have a strong agreement. But that is another, like, big, big touch point, I guess, for plastics.

But now I can continue to tell you terrible things about what’s inside your body right now. 

Thomas Hynes: It’s time for the nightmare hour with, uh, Tom and Chelsea.  

So let’s talk about some of these other terrifying threats to clean water. I wanted to ask you about what threats PFAS and other toxic chemicals pose. And then I wanted to ask you if I have this right. Is PFAS is per or polyfluoroalkaline substances. Am I right about that? 

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah. 

Thomas Hynes: You’re nodding. Yes. That’s incredible. And, that’s just for my own edification. I’m so excited. I know what that stands [00:09:00] for. And then I know some of the answers to this because I’ve worked here for a little while but tell me about the threats that PFAS pose and what Waterkeeper Alliance has done about this and what we’re planning to do about this.

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah, so PFAS is tricky because people talk about it and it sounds like it’s one thing, but actually that’s like referring to a group of 14,000 chemicals.  

Thomas Hynes: A huge number.

Chelsea McDonald: A huge number. They come from a good place, right? Back in the ‘20s or the ‘30s, scientists were just trying to invent things and they found these chemicals that then made things water resistant and flame proof, which are really good qualities for a lot of products.

So they started putting them in all of the things that you would think would want to be waterproof. And that ranges though, from raincoats and the things we would think of, but also like. Most children’s pajamas are required under law to be flame retardant. So, we’re talking about a wide range of products.

And it’s only after we started incorporating these chemicals [00:10:00] into so many things that we realized that they’re incredibly dangerous for humans and also our environment. So, they are also cancer causing, they cause endocrine disruptions, they cause reproductive issues and that’s kind of like the start of the list of the things we know about.

There’s 14,000 different types, which then makes it so EPA is often unwilling to say, like, we need to regulate all of the PFAS together. Because, like, what if one of those 14,000 doesn’t actually cause these severe problems, 

Thomas Hynes: right? 

Chelsea McDonald: However, that means that EPA is going one at a time and we only have regulations for about six of them currently, which is not at all sufficient for what we need out 

Thomas Hynes: of 14,000. 

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah. Out of 14,000. 

Thomas Hynes: That’s pretty slow.

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah. And which is a process that’s taken so long. And also quite honestly, it also means that chemical companies, if they wanted to, they would be able to just slightly change the formula, so then they’re avoiding the six that are regulated and instead can [00:11:00] use one of the other 14, 000 or invent something new.

So it’s just very insufficient in terms of what we’ve been seeing from our government in terms of trying to protect us from these chemicals.  

Thomas Hynes: And they I know they’re, they have a nickname is sort of the ‘forever chemicals’ and that’s because they last seemingly forever. 

Chelsea McDonald: they basically don’t break down when they’re in natural environments.

And then they’re also resistant to water, resistant to fire. So it’s also hard to break them down. And then that takes us back to our incinerator problem from earlier about these things being burnt and then put into the air around vulnerable communities. 

Thomas Hynes: Right. And so that’s fun. We released a PFAS sort of survey and I know we’ve done a lot of like, you know, work with petitioning the government and Congress and the EPA and things like that to take more action about this. But where do things stand on our advocacy at this moment?

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah. So we are getting ready to release another phase of, um, [00:12:00] testing that we did throughout the country and that testing will come out in summer of 2025.

Thomas Hynes: And that’s where, sorry to interrupt you. Sorry. And that’s just, that’s by testing. We, because for the first round, what we did was, and I believe this is the same for this round, our Waterkeepers all over the United States not every single one of them, but a significant amount go to their waterways, right. And test with these kits. So it’s, you know, this hugely coordinated effort. Yeah, sorry. I just wanted to throw that out there for the listener because it was and is really impressive the scope of this survey or testing or whatever report, whatever we want to call it. And it is also like confirms a lot of the fears that we have about the prevalence of this and everything else.

So, sorry. So you were saying this is coming out this summer. 

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah, this summer. Um, and thank you for I like have been living in it so long. It’s often I feel like I’m like at the end of the story 

But so 

Thomas Hynes: I get it 

Chelsea McDonald: In terms of this round of testing though, the [00:13:00] thing that’s really interesting is we tested above and below wastewater treatment facilities and below what are called sludge fields.

And I don’t know if we want to turn our depressing hour into also a slightly gross hour, but I can teach you about sludge. 

Thomas Hynes: Sure, sludge fields. Are sludge fields gross? They sound really fun. 

Chelsea McDonald: It’s an exciting news. Sludge is something that’s like on a monopoetically correct in terms of its name. It’s talking about 

What a great use of that word 

Thank you.

Yeah, I can’t even say it. 

It was great

But so it’s basically when you think about everything that goes in a sewer from your place of work, like it goes down a pipe, like from your place of work or from a house or from an industry, all of that ends up getting routed, for the most part, to a wastewater treatment facility, which is going to like filter out to try to make water that goes back into the rivers and goes back into our drinking supply.

Sludge is everything that is filtered out and considered too dangerous to go in, and everything that gets caught in those [00:14:00] filters. 

Then the thing is though, that for a really long time, EPA has encouraged farmers to use sludge from wastewater treatment plants to apply to fields as fertilizer which is a really eloquent solution for getting rid of this stuff, except for not only is the things in it that are what we would usually use as fertilizer, but also a bunch of toxic chemicals that we already decided was too dangerous for water, and also a bunch of PFAS, and then that’s what’s going on fields that crops are being grown in and also sit next to waterways so it works its way back into water. And so our results are very alarming, but also not unexpected from that situation for the amount of PFAS that’s coming into the water from the sludge fields.

Thomas Hynes: I expected more of the sludge fields. I can’t believe the sludge fields would be so disappointing. So that’s, that’s, yeah, so that’s a lot. And, a lot of this was very helpful because I think yeah, just, I mean, in a very short amount of time, you kind of broke down the history of this [00:15:00] and a lot of the problems with it.

And, I thought it was 1400 compounds of PFAS. I mean, it’s way more than that. And it is a moving target. It is like a very prevalent target as well. So you know, it’s encouraging at least that to me, like you were just saying, we work here and we’re kind of like thinking about this stuff all the time.

But PFAS seems to have at least crossover is something you would say for like a song, but it like has broken through. Like it’s like it’s a crossover hit. It’s gone mainstream truly and unfortunately, but also in sort of our understanding of toxic waste, I guess. And I don’t know. Hopefully that’s a good thing because it’d be worse if nobody even knew what this was or couldn’t remember what to call it or anything like that. So there at least seems to be some like literacy and understanding about this. I don’t know if that will translate to anything given our current climate and just the general slow pace of regulation remediation.

But maybe hopefully some sign [00:16:00] reason to be hopeful. But who knows? 

Okay. So again, I think we could talk forever about PFAS. I’m sorry about that. Terrible pun. 

Chelsea McDonald: I don’t forgive you, Tom. 

Thomas Hynes: I appreciate that. I can’t even look in the screen right now. I’m so embarrassed for saying that, but we could talk a lot about it. But I know we’re gonna do a more dedicated discussion on this later in the series.

So I will move us along. One thing that I just want to, like, tie in with this conversation on PFAS is something that I was just made aware of in the last year called 6PPD, which I believe , are Puget Soundkeeper or the Puget Soundkeeper team out in Seattle, Washington, I’ve really been on the sort of like the vanguard of, and correct me if I’m wrong it’s like the new PFAS.

I mean, I know it’s not it. Well, anyway, tell us about 6PPD and I’ll stop talking. How about that? 

Chelsea McDonald: No, you’re good. What a great lead in. So, yeah, if you’ve only known about 6PPD for a year, I’m only like six months ahead of you. Because [00:17:00] it is, so it’s not a new chemical, but it is something that we’re new to understanding, which I think is a reoccurring theme in my work that a lot of like, cats are out of boxes all over the place.

But so, in terms of 6PPD, it’s the chemical that’s gonna be in every, basically every tire that’s made, and it’s what makes a tire stable. So, they’ve done a lot of studies where like, you’re gonna just wear through your tread really fast or tires explode, which obviously is bad, and so this chemical helps prevent that, which is obviously a good thing. 

However, what we didn’t know until I think 2001, is that when 6PPD is running along the road in these tires, it’s having a chemical reaction with the air, creating another chemical, which is called 6PPDQ. And 6PPDQ especially is nasty in that, when it makes its way into water , it’s going to [00:18:00] have really rapid and disastrous effects for aquatic species.

This is really first seen in many ways in coho salmon, which are a protected species in the Pacific Northwest. Really iconic fish, which is why our Puget Soundkeeper is so involved. And coho that are impacted by 6PPD basically just start losing their, it’s like weird to describe it even, like it’s like they called it zombie fish disease for a really long time before they knew it was called.

And so it’s fish swimming as if they were zombies. They lose their sense of direction and then they can die in as little as an hour. And so we know it affects the salmon. We know also it affects similarly, the trout species, so those then include like rainbow trout, which are found in watersheds throughout the United States, especially because they’re a favorite of anglers to go catch, and so that’s what we know. 

Thomas Hynes: my God.

Chelsea McDonald: but also we didn’t know that 6PPDQ was even being created until four years [00:19:00] ago. So it’s a lot of understanding left to build. They’re currently in like early stages of testing the impacts on mammals.  And early studies are showing that causes some issues and the liver function of mice and we have again, no idea the full range of what this chemical can do, but we know it’s killing fish within an hour so it’s probably not going to be good for humans. 

Thomas Hynes: But it’s only on every tire of every car in the world. Right? So that can’t be that bad. That’s actually, yeah, that’s crazy. And really concerning. And I’m just making a side point, which I know is not that. This is just a point I want to make because I’m like a mass transit nerd that electric cars will not save us. They will not save us. They’re cool. They’re better, but they still have tires. Go on. So you’re gonna say something. Sorry. 

Chelsea McDonald: I was just going to give you a new talking point, in which electric cars are actually so much heavier than normal cars, that they’ve done studies that they wear through tires so much faster that they’re actually putting more and more 6PPD on the [00:20:00] roadways than a normal car would. 

Thomas Hynes: Geez. All right. Well, that’s a whole other conversation. Cause I mean, I will talk about mass transit and electric cars and all that forever, but let’s take me out of that. So we’re talking about 6PPD being this new and emerging threat to clean water that is barely, we’re barely even knew it existed or we’re new to knowing existed. And I was talking to Sean at Puget Soundkeeper over the summer, and he said something to the effect of, that 6PPD is the second most toxic chemical ever…

Chelsea McDonald: ever found in water.

Thomas Hynes: That’s insane. And it’s been happening for, for decades, and it’s just only on four tires on every car in the world. So, it’s out there. That’s happening right now as we speak. And that’s really very scary. Is there any reason for me to feel anything but dread about that?

Are there any is there anything that we’re [00:21:00] doing about this? That Waterkeeper Alliance is doing? Or that people listening? Is there any actions or ways we can learn more about this?

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah. So I don’t know if this is good news or if this is bad news. But the tire industry itself, as soon as we figured out how dangerous this chemical actually, like, even just like started to realize like that this is what’s causing the zombie fish disease. Are really engaged in trying to find an alternative to this chemical which is I’ve never seen an industry commit so much right away to trying to find a solution. But I think I’ve done this work too long because it makes me very nervous that even they are like oh, we need to fix this right now. Like there is no equivalent of like I’ll just recycle and it will be fine

Thomas Hynes: They’re not even going through the motions of pretending this is fine that they’re right to like, okay, we’re bad, we’re gonna do something about this.

That is yeah, that’s funny because it’s, it’s a, it’s a hopeful time, but it’s a real terrifying sign too. 

Chelsea McDonald: But so like, that’s good. Like, right there they’re [00:22:00] engaging. They’re doing research on like, what are alternatives that can make tires still safe? Because it’s obviously an important goal for people who aren’t like you and I, Tom committed to the New York subway system.

But also not create these crazy chemicals. Which also we keep talking about all the tires, which obviously there are so many, but also let’s think about all of the, like, soccer fields that are made out of rubber, or the playgrounds, because they’ve been doing a bunch of studies, and it’s being found inside human bodies at quite high rates, including children who are playing on soccer fields.

And so the concern, though, with what the industry is doing is the industry currently is investigating a bunch of different alternative chemicals. However, they have names like 7PPD and 9PPD, and so there’s concern that even though, they’re working in good faith, are we just going to end up with this PFAS problem, right, where, like, yes, we have an alternative, but we’re going to just, like, put in all of these tires, and 20 years down the [00:23:00] line, we’re going to realize it’s causing the same problems because also the chemicals are not that different from each other. 

Which is why Waterkeeper Alliance has been doing advocacy with the federal government. And Senator Merkley from Oregon has been a really good leader on this issue to try to get the federal government to also invest in this research and also do this work. So that we just have kind of a less science that is less invested in by the companies if that makes sense. So that’s where our big push is because we just, we both know it’s really bad. We don’t have an alternative and we don’t understand the extent of the problem currently. 

Thomas Hynes: Wow. I mean yeah, I mean the one thing I can take away is like at least we know and we’re not just driving around blindly causing this pollution scratching our head as to why all the salmon and trout are dying and be turning into zombies.

But that’s a real uphill battle for sure. So just moving along, on this hit parade of threats to clean water.

We move now to something [00:24:00] called nonpoint source pollution. And this is one of the greatest threats to clean water. Can you explain to our listeners what that means? Nonpoint source pollution?

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah. So if you think about, just like a waterway, let’s say, whatever, like, creek or river maybe is running near you right now. And you think about a single pipe that’s coming from an industrial plant that is clearly running into the water. That’s gonna be a point source pollution because we know it’s coming from the single point versus nonpoint source of pollution is when it’s maybe a lot of different types of contributions.

So there’s not just that factory, but there’s a road running along the side of the river that’s putting out a bunch of 6PPD and also for what it’s worth your tires are also producing microplastics and PFAS that are one of the largest sources of microplastics in human bodies.

And maybe there’s also sludge field. Well, not even a sludge field, [00:25:00] but just like cross-thrown on the other side of the field and then the sludge is getting into the water, right? So it’s when there’s a bunch of different sources and also maybe those sources aren’t just getting in through a single pipe but instead these kind of like rain events causing things to run into the water or different ways that it’s finding its way in. 

Thomas Hynes: Is there something with like agriculture too? Did you already say that? That like when we apply the animal waste from like a CAFO to a field and then the water or like it rains on the field and then that goes into the water, is that nonpoint source pollution as well? 

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah, it is. 

Thomas Hynes: Covers a lot. 

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah. We’re also like, let’s think about all of the pesticides that are sitting on those crops too, right?

Like, yeah. So it’s really incredibly variable. And it’s also to be fair, hard to regulate, right? Because it’s hard to say, this is the source of pollution. These are the people responsible. This is who, you know what I mean? Instead, it’s this [00:26:00] confluence of different events. 

Thomas Hynes: Confluence is the right word.

Yeah. And you brought up this visual when you started talking about this, like, yeah, there’s like a factory next to a river and it’s got a pipe and it’s going right into the river. Like, that’s clear. That’s a clear discharge point. And this is more like not ephemeral, but just sort of like harder to pinpoint but equally dangerous and is it less regulated because of that or is it harder to regulate or harder to tackle like from the discharge permits or things like that? Because it’s so I want to say like Lucy Goosey, that’s not the right word, but just because it’s like not specifically from that pipe going right into the river? 

Chelsea McDonald: It is harder to regulate just because it’s harder to clearly point to why something was caused. But there was a recent Supreme Court decision, I guess, actually never, 2020, I guess is no longer recent, which is jarring for many reasons.

Thomas Hynes: It’s very jarring 

Chelsea McDonald: So there was a Supreme Court [00:27:00] decision in 2020 called Maui in which the Supreme Court ruled that the Clean Water Act may require permits for indirect discharges of pollutants from nonpoint source solutions. But there’s like caveats in terms of like, is the discharger equivalent to a direct discharger?

And like, identifying these things just still becomes hard. And also, we’re talking about why people do things. It’s normally because of like, lawsuits, and people being able to prove that they’ve been hurt in some way, and it becomes really hard for those plaintiffs to prove, this is the reason why I have cancer, especially when we’re talking about people who maybe live in areas where it’s not just the one factory on the river, but some places there’s 600 or, you know, all along one watershed.

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. That remind me of like, is it like highway 10 in Louisiana has all the refineries, like, I know this is like a different topic, but they have like all the oil refineries, like it’s like cancer alley or something.

It’s like, well, who did it? You know, there’s like a [00:28:00] thousand culprits. And there’s a lot of places like that, unfortunately throughout the country. So let’s talk about what our campaigns and what Waterkeeper Alliance is doing about this threat to clean water. 

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah. So as we outlined, because it’s so complicated, we’re like addressing it through lots of different ways. So there’s both like the litigation, like Maui that we weren’t a part of, but we have our legal team who’s doing great stuff in a similar kind of vein. But then we also have our work right around addressing pollution from, I guess it’s chemical source instead of its direct source in terms of like trying to get rid of 6PPD or trying to get rid of PFAS and trying to make it so we’re just getting rid of these chemicals overall.

So we don’t have the factories and we don’t have the consumer products and we don’t have the trash and. We also have a different campaign that is working, especially on agriculture with Pure Farms, Pure Waters, and they’re doing a lot of work to try to make farms safer.

Thomas Hynes: [00:29:00] That was the last six episodes we’ve done. We’re all about that and truly some experts here on that within Waterkeeper Alliance and at our many Waterkeeper groups. You know, throughout the south and the Midwest and even it’s all over. It’s incredible.

Yeah, so there’s, there’s a lot being done. There’s a lot of problems, but there’s a lot being done. We’ve touched on a lot of topics here and I know we’re going to get deeper into this as we proceed with this series and talk about these issues more in a more detailed way, which is going to be great.

And I’m excited for this series. You know, in a, in a lot of ways. I guess when I, in, in thinking about, you know, this big picture. Is there, there’s a lot of reasons to feel despair and, and concern, are there any reasons for concern that we haven’t touched on? Or they’re like, bigger problems that we should know about or, you know… 

Chelsea McDonald: yeah, 

Thomas Hynes: or, or is that enough? 

Chelsea McDonald: As you can tell, I’m definitely super fun at parties. I think just in terms of the regulations [00:30:00] we have are not enough. We’re in a world in which those regulations that we even have are in question about how long they’re going to be around.

And so, I think that’s the real issue in terms of like, this isn’t what we’ve been told around – you are the problem because you didn’t recycle the bottle, and you’re the reason the trash exists. 

We need standards that everyone follows in order to actually get these things addressed.

Because like, I could spend all of my time on the internet trying to find the brands that avoid PFAS a thousand percent and wear only linen clothes, but at the end of the day, if you, Tom, are buying the raincoat, there’s still a factory that’s still producing a thing that then is still finding its way in the water. 

We have to have collective action around this. 

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. It sounds a little bit like extended producer responsibility, which [00:31:00] I think may take us off course here a little bit, but you know, it’s a flag I fly a lot because it’s, it is this. It’s flipping this notion on the head, like, well, did you use a plastic straw? Like you’re kind of the problem. You’re like, no, I’m not the problem. Like the corporations are the problem. And the lack of government oversight is a problem. And these companies making products that will just exist for 5,000 years. And then they throw their hands up and say, well, we’re done with this transaction, but our product can never be recycled and will cause cancer for generations.

Seems like a little tricky to swallow. And you know, like, maybe we ask them to be better stewards and partners in this world with us. You know, maybe they take a little responsibility. But that’s something I could absolutely talk about for a full hour. So I’ll rein myself back in.  

With all that in mind, are there any reasons to feel like hopeful? I mean, is there any progress that’s like, that we can point to, or is there, or is this just an uphill battle that we’re gonna fight forever? Either answer is fine.  

Chelsea McDonald: I think honestly, the [00:32:00] toxic chemicals are some of my work that I feel the most optimistic about in part because as you said, Tom, people are becoming way more aware of them. Like, my mother, who never engages really in anything, like sends me PFAS articles all of the time and or like when there’s jokes on SNL and like, which also there’s jokes on SNL about PFAS. 

It’s like in the consciousness and also I feel more optimistic about these chemicals because they’re so bad for everyone, and they’re everywhere for everyone. Which makes me feel like we’re, it’s more likely for things to get done. Um, versus like, some of my endangered species work, trying to like save a small animal that no one’s ever heard of, that lives in one place, and like no one’s ever seen because it only comes out at night. And that animal’s super important too.

Thomas Hynes: Is that the Eastern Hellbender?

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah. Yeah. You know me so well. And so, yeah. 

But, so in terms of, as an environmentalist, I feel like people have an idea of [00:33:00] environmentalists, right that people are really excited about salamanders or owls, which are awesome, and I love a lot but in terms of things everybody cares nobody wants, their kids to be drinking milk that’s full of PFAS, but that’s what’s happening in the United States because that’s what the cows are eating the crops grown out of. I think it’s something that is more likely to be addressed because it impacts all of us.

Thomas Hynes: Do you want to talk about the Eastern Hellbender while we’re here? Because wildlife and critters are so close to my heart. And yeah, it’s been a while since I’ve talked about the Eastern Hellbender and tell me about that work. 

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah, so I’m gonna ask everyone to pause their podcast, stop whatever they’re doing, and Google a picture of an Eastern Hellbender

Thomas Hynes: If you’re driving, please pull over to the side of the road right now. Don’t Google Eastern [00:34:00] Hellbender and drive. We really mean that. Go ahead, Chelsea. 

Chelsea McDonald: Thank you, Tom. Thank you, Tom. See, again, we forgot about the drivers. And so, they are not cute, but I think they’re cute. They’re like ugly cute. They’re very small. They’re really cute. 

Thomas Hynes: They’re cute. Yeah. 

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah. They are salamanders, which if you aren’t familiar with that part of the animal kingdom. Those are amphibians, which means they live in waterways and they breathe through their skin. And they really are these incredibly important species because since they’re like filtering water through their skin, they are very reactive to chemicals or changes in their ecosystem.

So they’re kind of, to mix my animal metaphors, the canary in the coal mines for if a river system is healthy. Appalachia is where the eastern hellbender lives. And it’s getting harder and harder for them to survive in part because of chemicals we’ve talked about, in part because of climate change, in part because of habitat destruction.

And so they have become an endangered species. Which in the United States is currently [00:35:00] protected under the Endangered Species Act. Fish and Wildlife Service has been taking steps to like, officially protect them.

Because I guess oh, I think I made an error in which the hellbender is becoming endangered, like designated as an endangered species. Which like factually they are. However, we need the regulation. So they’re officially protected under the law, which is like a nuance there. And so yeah, so like that’s really exciting and we’re hoping that the Fish and Wildlife Service will finalize those regulations.

So this really valuable species is protected and also in part because this species will lead to the protections for a lot of other ones too. 

Thomas Hynes: Right. 

Chelsea McDonald: Everyone may actually find cute as well. 

Thomas Hynes: So the charismatic megafauna and the ugly cute fauna as well. I mean, and they’re all as I said, wildlife is very dear to me, but like, it’s important. Everything is important and they’re [00:36:00] all not like, I have these conversations with my three year old. He’s like, is that animal nice for me? And with the exception of dogs, I’m like, they’re not nice or mean, they’re just animals doing their thing and they don’t, I don’t get this far into it with them, but cause usually like gets distracted, but, it’s important, these animals don’t need to serve us any purpose. They’re just doing their thing. And the canary in the coal mine, is an apt thing because what I find is that when we protect the Eastern hellbender or anything cuter you’re actually protecting yourself. And your children and your families and your neighbors, because what’s good for the animals is like we’re animals, you know, we do well with clean water and clean air as well.

So if we have to think about it selfishly protect animals, because those same protections will end up protecting yourself and your family and your community. So just something that I think about.  

I wanted to ask you this question at the top. But I guess I’ll just ask it now. So why do you do this work? Like what makes you come into the office every day? What makes you open your laptop and take [00:37:00] on these huge, but very worthy battles?

Chelsea McDonald: Yeah. I think a lot of people who are in this work can give you like stories about like an idyllic childhood along a river, which I can do because I’m from the small town in Colorado. 

But I think the real honest reason, like, I think, so maybe that’s why I started being interested in it. But the real reason why I still open my computer every day, despite the world in which we live in. Cause it’s very tempting to just like not look at the news in a given moment. Is that what’s happening? Isn’t okay. People, like my family members grew up, like downwind from Rocky flats, which is where they made nuclear warhead arsenals and now most of them have cancer. And so like we come from frontline communities, where we had no choice about what, happened to our bodies, what happened to our environments, what’s happening in our own homes. And we should.

And I think those, I think, are also principles that I don’t [00:38:00] think anyone really should disagree with, regardless of their political views, because I don’t think anyone likes being told what to do. I don’t think anyone likes having things happen to them that they didn’t agree to. And, we just have to continue to explain that to people, that like, A, this is the way this actually is, and B, it doesn’t have to be, and it impacts all of us.

And so that’s a fight I’m always happy to participate in.

Thomas Hynes: Well, on behalf of everyone listening and everyone not listening, the whole world, thank you for taking on that fight.

And I, and I think I wanted to end with something hopeful. And I think you really, you really did when you said it doesn’t have to be this way. And I think, that to me, it feels very hopeful and empowering. And so, that I appreciate that sentiment and I appreciate this whole conversation obviously, but I appreciate that.

I guess closing sentiment. Well, Chelsea, my colleague, my friend, thank you so much for being here today. I feel like we have had a really great introduction to what [00:39:00] this series is going to be all about.

I could have talked for an hour on like five different topics. But more to come as we roll out more episodes of this series. And thank you so much for being here.