Equity In Every Drop: Series Three, Episode Five

Protecting Wetlands Worldwide

In this episode of Equity In Every Drop, host Thomas Hynes speaks with two influential leaders dedicated to the preservation of critical ecosystems. The episode opens with Great Salt Lake Waterkeeper Amy Wicks, who discusses her efforts to protect the largest remaining wetland ecosystem in the American West. Amy elaborates on her background in child advocacy and transition into water policy, sharing her experiences serving on the Ogden City Council. She highlights the Great Salt Lake’s significant decline in water levels due to upstream water diversions, primarily for outdoor use such as lawns and golf courses, and discusses the severe ecological impacts stemming from this loss—particularly on migratory bird populations and air quality. She emphasizes the importance of a national and international collaborative approach as well as introduces the 4200 Project, a policy initiative aimed at raising the lake’s water levels to 4198 feet to sustain its health and ecological balance.

Bocas de Ceniza Waterkeeper Liliana Guerrero joins the conversation with insights into her organization’s mission to protect Columbian rivers, wetlands, and coastal zones through community engagement, legal advocacy, and scientific monitoring. She speaks on the significance of wetlands and  Ramsar sites in Colombia (the Ramsar Convention on Wetlands is an international treaty established in 1971 in Ramsar, Iran, for the conservation and sustainable use of wetlands), describing their role as critical habitats for over 190 migratory bird species. Underlining the threats these habitats face, such as deforestation, contamination, and climate change, Liliana notes the accelerated rate of wetland decline compared to forests. She elaborates on her work in the legislative field, coordinating efforts to recognize Colombia’s rivers as legal entities deserving of special ecological and cultural protection. She also stresses the significant role civil society and Waterkeeper groups play in promoting wetland governance, defending environmental defenders, and translating global frameworks into actionable local projects.

Amy and Liliana reflect on how being part of the larger Waterkeeper Alliance movement amplifies their work, providing legitimacy, visibility, and access to resources and global platforms for environmental advocacy. Through shared experiences and strategies within the Alliance, they are able to strengthen their respective local efforts and promote international cooperation for ecosystem protection. The episode underscores the interconnectedness of global ecosystems and the necessity of collective efforts to protect critical habitats for wildlife and human health. 

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Thank you for listening, sharing, and supporting our mission to ensure everyone’s right to clean water. Together, we demand equity in every drop.

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Transcript – Series 3 Episode 5

[00:00:00] Thomas Hynes: A few episodes back, we touched on Waterkeeper Alliance’s efforts to protect the Eastern hellbender and the importance of protecting fragile ecosystems. Healthy ecosystems like wetlands, naturally filter pollutants from water and provide flood controls.

When those ecosystems are degraded from deforestation development or pollution, water sources become more vulnerable to contamination affecting public health, endangering species and driving up water treatment costs. In this episode, we’ll be talking about a special collaboration between Great Salt Lake Waterkeeper and Latin American Waterkeepers to protect the largest remaining wetland ecosystem in the western United States.

A vital habitat for 10 to 12 million migratory birds spanning 338 species that travel from every country in the Americas. Our guest today is Amy Wicks of the newly formed Great Salt Lake Waterkeeper. 

Amy was raised on the eastern shore of the Great Salt [00:01:00] Lake, nestled below the Wasatch Mountains, and has resided in Ogden City for 26 years. Her earliest childhood memory is fishing a local stream with her father, and today she spends significant time recreating on rivers and lakes within the Great Salt Lake Watershed and is an avid boater.

Amy is a Miniconjou planes by the water Lakota, and an enrolled member of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe. She has been actively involved with water issues affecting tribal land, including organizing a well attended fundraiser and community action in support of the water protectors at Standing Rock, Amy enjoys time spent on the river and in the snow, organic gardening and hiking with her pups.

Amy, thank you so much for being here today. It’s great to see you again. 

Amy Wicks: Thank you, Tom.

Thomas Hynes: So I’m so excited to have you here today and I’m so excited that Waterkeeper Alliance has a great salt Lake Waterkeeper. It’s such an iconic body of water. It’s such an important body of water, and I know you’ll tell us more. To [00:02:00] begin, why don’t you tell me a little bit about yourself and how you came to be the great Salt Lake Waterkeeper? 

Amy Wicks: Well, so I worked in child advocacy, child welfare for 25 years, and I decided that there was just more to life that maybe that wasn’t my calling anymore. And I had experience. I served on the Ogden City Council for 12 years as an elected official.

I was the youngest elected official in Ogden’s history, the first Native American to serve in elected office in Ogden. And I learned a lot about water policy in that role. We set water rates. I was on the sewer board. I was able to kind of do a deep dive into a lot of public policy issues in my time on the city council and when I was on the city council

we were looking at changing [00:03:00] water rates. I wanted conservation based water rates. I reached out to Utah Rivers Council for some help with that. So that’s where I got to know the work of Utah Rivers Council and got to know Zach Frankel, our executive director. I fought to get a Rain Barrel program in Ogden City and did work with Utah Rivers Council during my time on the city council, and that’s how I became familiar with their work.

And when I was thinking about a career change I started talking with Zach and there was an opportunity to work with Utah River’s Council and we decided that filing an application for the Great Salt Lake Waterkeeper was something that was very necessary at this time. I think the lake had suffered from lack of a waterkeeper and lack of that voice for many years.

[00:04:00] 

Amy Wicks: And when the lake reached a record low in 2022, there was a lot of attention on the state of Utah, on the lake. Are the elected officials in Utah going to do what it takes to save the Great Salt Lake? And we decided that it was important to have a broader voice, a voice with some national and international attention.

And so that’s really what prompted us to file the application for the Great Salt Lake Waterkeeper. And we launched that in January of 2025. 

Thomas Hynes: Amazing. We talked a little about career and it just occurs to me now, you said your career was in child advocacy, and I’m a believer that protecting waterways is a form of child advocacy.

It’s human advocacy. So there is a line there. Now I’m speaking to you from New York City. I’ve been to Utah a couple times, but [00:05:00] tell me about the importance of this water body, specifically the wetlands that surround it. And you already touched on this a little bit, but tell me about how it’s changed.

Amy Wicks: So the Great Salt Lake is the largest remaining wetland ecosystem in the American West. And those extensive wetlands cover about 400,000 acres. And those wetlands are crucial for supporting a wide array of wildlife, particularly migratory birds. And they’re salt marshes there’s fresh freshwater wetlands. And they act as vital habitat in staging areas for 12 million migratory birds. The large population center of the Wasatch front where most of Utah’s population resides is adjacent to those wetland areas surrounding the Great Salt Lake.

And so when those wetlands are [00:06:00] threatened. When they dry up, we end up with large areas of exposed lake bed, which creates toxic dust that then impacts the air quality for the people living along the Wasatch front. 

Thomas Hynes: So as I understand it, it’s not just that you’re losing the critical habitat, it’s that the land that is lost to habitat then becomes this poisonous, airborne substance . But it’s not just the loss. It’s a loss plus a new threat. Yes?

Amy Wicks: Yes. And the lake has been declining, significantly in the past 20 years. And those areas of exposed lake bed create dust storms come up. They pick up dust. The storms tend to come from the west.

The large population centers are to the east of the lake. And so that dust gets picked up. And there have been many well documented [00:07:00] instances where you see the dust coming up off of the dry lake bed and inundating the population centers along the Wasatch front, and until recently there were only four

air quality monitors looking at the dust and looking at the composition of the dust. And what’s in that fine particulate matter. And so there’s a lack of knowledge regarding how much of a problem it really is and what are the components of that dust? We know there’s mercury, an arsenic there. All of our sewer systems tend to drain into the Great Salt Lake as well, so whatever is not filtered out through the sewage treatment ends up in the Great Salt Lake as well, and in that dust. So you may be looking at [00:08:00] PFAS, you may be looking at microplastics things like that too.

Thomas Hynes: Explain to me and our listeners, because when I was doing some research on you and speaking with you, what has struck me is what we’re talking about.

It’s the physical difference of the lake. It is the contraction, the shrinking of it. How did that happen? 

Amy Wicks: So the lake has shrunk over the years due to upstream water diversions, and a lot of that is to water, the lawns and landscapes and farms of people living in the Great Salt Lake Basin.

About 80% of our summer water usage is outdoor water usage. And we live in a high desert. Getting around 10 inches of rain a year, maybe a little bit more in some areas along the Wasatch Front. And we have a lot of [00:09:00] landscaping that includes Kentucky Bluegrass and that takes a lot of water.

So it’s upstream water diversions and a lot of that water that’s diverted is used for outdoor water use, going to lawns, not going back to the great Salt Lake, a leaky faucet or leaky toilet That water’s going into eventually making its way into the sanitary sewer system being treated and ending up in the Great Salt Lake.

So that’s not necessarily a net loss but the water going into outdoor watering and landscaping is seeping into the ground and in most instances, not making it back into the lake. 

Thomas Hynes: That’s very interesting. And so it sounds like golf courses, lawns, I don’t wanna say not vanity, but not natural.

There’s not a Utah blue grass. It sounds like there’s not, that’s not how it would [00:10:00] normally look. Yeah, it sounds like there,

Amy Wicks: there are some grasses that use less water, but that’s not the predominant turf grass around here. And there are some efforts. To try to get people to use less outdoor water.

When I was on the City council, Utah Rivers Council had a rip your strip program where starting small getting people to take out the grass on their parking strip and put in Waterwise Landscaping that helps. Every little bit helps. But. It’s sometimes hard to change behaviors and yeah, those things take money to change landscaping.

So the state does have some programs that they’ve instituted, especially since the lake reached its record low level in 2022. That was kind of the fire alarm sounding like we need to do something, and they increase the availability of some of those programs. But there’s still the [00:11:00] perception with a lot of people that you have to have a certain amount of grass or you can’t take out your lawn.

And that’s not true, but that’s not exactly explicit and clear in some of the landscaping ordinances and things like that cities have. So there’s some room for improvement there and some education getting people to water less, fixing antiquated water delivery systems. Utah was founded by Mormon pioneers who came out here and they

took the water from the rivers and streams and made the desert bloom and part of that system there are canals that are pioneer -era canals that are still functioning and still delivering water, not necessarily to farmland anymore, but to [00:12:00] neighborhoods. And some people still use those antiquated systems

with flood irrigation to water their lawns. So, there’s a lot of pieces and water diversions that have got us to this point. Climate change is also a factor. Our summers are hotter. Our winters are shorter and something that’s also problematic with the great Salt Lakes

shrinking is, Utah is known for our snow. We have license plates that say the greatest snow on earth. We have a huge multi-billion dollar industry tied to that snow and skiing in the mountains, and we have that snow. Because of the Great Salt Lake, because storms come in from the west, they hit that huge body of water.

They slow down, they pick up moisture, they get stuck on the Wasatch Mountains [00:13:00] and dump a bunch of snow. And with the lake shrinking, that also is having an impact on the amount of snow we’re getting during the winter.

Thomas Hynes: So I want to talk a little bit more about birds, because I always wanna talk about birds, but I was surprised to learn that the Great Salt Lake supports up to 12 million migratory birds. Can you talk a little bit about how important the lake is within the larger network of bird migration across the Americas?

And just for my sake, can you tell me what kind of birds they are, 

Amy Wicks: Oh, we have so many birds.  It depends on the time of year and what you’re looking at. We have tundra swans. 75% of America’s population of tundra swans ends up at the Great Salt Lake and they migrate through the great Salt Lake ecosystem.

They tend to show up October through December, and then you see them again in March and April. They’re huge and [00:14:00] they’re amazing. We have a lot of eared grebes up to 1.4 million. As they gather at the Great Salt Lake at the end of summer, they feed on brine flies. And somewhere at times between 50 and 90% of the North American population can be found there.

They come here in October and they molt and grow a new set of feathers. And they look really sad when they do that, but they come here to do that and gain weight feeding on brine flies in preparation for their migration. They end up in some of the areas protected by the Tijuana Waterkeeper.

We have Western sandpipers, about 17,000 of them. They stop and they make their way from the breeding areas in Alaska and then they winter along the coast in Mexico. We have some special birds too. Wilson’s [00:15:00] phalaropes are some of the birds that you’ll find at the Great Salt Lake. They make a 4,000 mile journey.

And about 60% of the global population relies on the Great Salt Lake.

 And what’s concerning is their population has fallen about 70% since the 1980s. They number about 350,000 and there has been a petition to have them listed as an endangered species.

Thomas Hynes: And if I’m not mistaken, there’s, pretty significant American white pelican nesting population by the lake or on an island? On the lake, is that right? 

Amy Wicks: There is. So [00:31:00] the American white pelican is the second largest bird in North America. They’re huge.

They have a wingspan of up to eight feet, and they are heavily dependent upon the Great Salt Lake. The lake supports about 10 to 20% of the continent’s population and the largest pelican rookery in the US is located on an island in the shrinking north arm of the great Salt Lake. And the area has historically provided predator free habitat for them to nest there, but with the lake shrinking

 That there’s land that is now between the island and the areas where we have coyotes, raccoons, and other predators that have been wreaking havoc on that rookery. And so that’s a challenge with it too. Something that occurred when [00:32:00] the lake reached a record low level in 2022 was to preserve the brine shrimp population.

The Great Salt Lake is kind of two lakes almost. There’s a causeway that divides it into a north arm and a south arm. And that causeway has been in place for 60 some odd years and. There’s basically a breach in the causeway where they will move some rocks.

It’s not very sophisticated. They move some rocks to allow water to flow back and forth. But they needed to they basically sacrificed the north arm. It’s hyper saline doesn’t support the brine shrimp population like the south arm does. But they’ve basically sacrificed it and sacrificed, water going into it. It can [00:33:00] be up to two feet lower than the south arm. There were attempts by the state legislature to increase that amount of difference. And right now it’s two feet. So it can be up to two feet lower than the south arm. And that also creates the problem with, you don’t allow water into the north arm.

There are vast areas of exposed lakebed that’s close to the population center of Ogden, where I live. And it’s also creating some problems for habitat like that, that the American White Pelican utilizes.

Thomas Hynes: That’s incredible. And those are very cool birds. I live in New York and, but even we get fewer birds than that, but we get a lot. And just the spring migration and the fall migration are very magical times. And, I would imagine that you were talking about the brine flies.

what happens if someone’s not coming around to eat them? How does the ecosystem survive if these reliable birds and actors in the ecosystem don’t return or if their habitat is removed? I mean, I think we know what would happen, and it’s great to hear you [00:16:00] mention Margarita Diaz at Tijuana Waterkeeper, and I wanna move into that collaboration a little bit more because when you launched in January

you were joined by waterkeepers from Latin America in your introductory press conference including some of my favorite members of the movement, Guyallamba, Waterkeeper in Ecuador, LaPaz Waterkeeper in Mexico, Tijuana, Waterkeeper and Liliana Guerrero as well in Columbia, I believe. And they’re working alongside you as part of a shared effort to protect these migratory bird habitats.  How does that kind of international partnership shape the work you’re doing to protect the great salt Lake and the wider ecosystems, and does it change how the work feels on the ground 

Amy Wicks: well, I think when we started out with figuring out, what our goals were with the Great Salt Lake Waterkeeper, we realized that the Great Salt Lake is located in Utah, but it is important to [00:17:00] species around the Western Hemisphere and that was part of what was so compelling about being part of the Waterkeeper alliance, is being able to connect and work with other Waterkeepers around the world who there are birds are their birds too.

And if we don’t succeed with our work. Then that creates problems with their work, protecting the habitat for those birds. So, it just kind of seemed like a natural thing to engage with them and get them involved and try to figure out ways where we could help elevate their voices and our voice too.

For the benefit of these 12 million birds who rely upon the great Salt Lake, and you could imagine like you take off for a [00:18:00] vacation somewhere where you normally go and you show up to a place where you were normally able to sleep and there’s nowhere to sleep. There’s no food there, and that’s where your family’s been going for generations and you know nothing else.

That’s what’s potentially happening to these birds. And with the decline of other saline lakes around the American West, the Great Salt Lake ecosystem becomes more and more important. And as levels of the great salt lake decline, it also concentrates the salinity in the lake, and that creates a challenge for brine shrimp and brine fly survival because if it gets too salty, they’re not able to reproduce, and so then you don’t have that important food supply for migratory birds [00:19:00] and it alters the whole ecosystem.

Thomas Hynes: When we were speaking earlier about a double threat, it’s actually a triple threat. Yeah. I mean, that didn’t occur to me. So just to recap the contraction or shrinking of the Great Salt Lake not only reduces habitat, it creates this new toxic land or opportunity for toxic air pollution and actually increases the salinity of the habitat that remains making it potentially unviable.

That’s terrible. Any one of those is bad enough. But that these three things are happening at once is very scary. And personally speaking I’ve mentioned this before for a number of reasons, but it’s encouraging to me that you are being a voice for this iconic and important water body.

And I’m sure I’m not the only one who feels that way

so Amy, we’ve talked a lot about the importance of the Great Salt Lake, both to Utah, but also just to the world’s ecosystem, to the birds of the world, and also the critical threats to this waterway that have already [00:20:00] arrived. What are you working on at Great Salt Lake Waterkeeper to address this?

What are you most proud of?

What do you want people to know about.

Amy Wicks: So, Utah Rivers Council has come up with a set of policy solutions that will deliver meaningful amounts of water to the Great Salt Lake. And there’s information on our website on the 4,200 project, and that’s part of it is just establishing a minimum lake level.

 Several years ago, Utah River’s Council tried to get a non-binding resolution passed by the Utah State Legislature recognizing that 4,198 feet in elevation is the minimum healthy level for the Great Salt Lake, and that’s based on all of the reports and data from the state’s own scientific experts from [00:21:00] forestry, fire, and state lands and others

and that 4,198 is kind of the Goldilocks point, the minimum level, Goldilocks point where things are just right. Where Brine shrimp and brine flies thrive where it covers up a good portion of the exposed lake bed. So we’re not exposed to toxic dust where the wetlands and habitat for birds surrounding the Great Salt Lake are healthy.

And tried to get this non-binding resolution passed and it failed to even make it out of committee.  Yet the state has resolutions recognizing the Dutch oven as the state cooking vessel. We have a state dinosaur. We have all of these things, but we could not even get the legislature to recognize that there needs to be a goal, and [00:22:00] that goal should be 4,198.

That’s where the 4,200 project kind of got its name. We figure two feet more is good and that’s easier for people to remember. The Great Salt Lake reached a record low level in November of 2022 at 4,188, and today it’s at 4,191 feet. 

Thomas Hynes: Okay, so eight feet below where we wanna be.

Amy Wicks: Yes, we’re eight feet below where we want to be. And something that happens in the summer because of hot temperatures, there’s a lot of evaporation from the lake and we’re at 4,191. During the summer we can lose two to three feet in elevation. And so being at 4,191 today, we could possibly be heading toward another low elevation [00:23:00] if we don’t act

And get water to the lake. And so part of it is we have some of the cheapest water rates in the US. We have an antiquated system for rates where there are a lot of people who are paying property taxes for water instead of paying for the actual gallons used. Your water bill is affixed to your property tax.

And so there’s no incentive financially for conservation And money talks. if it was more expensive to use more water, I think people’s thoughts about their landscaping might change. 

Thomas Hynes: I think that’s true. I think we have this notion that you just turn on the faucet and water appears and that’s a product of our own.

It’s like we’re almost like victims of our own success and engineering and making life easier for so many people. But [00:24:00] yeah, I think pricing really is what talks. Yeah. Pricing is really what is important here. But I also think, and I hope, I kind of feel like I sit in for the uninformed listener ,I try to be as informed as I can, but I’m learning in real time from you and our other guests, and I was not aware of any of this.

 my hope is, is that the great work you are doing and illuminating this problemm the issue seems pretty clear, and the 4,200 project is a great way to make people understand this. And the hope is that the more people understand the problem, that they’re more likely to fix it ’cause, and that hopefully people are just unaware and you can forgive that and you can correct that.

And speaking of just the general public. We’ve talked a lot about what you are doing and what the problem is and the importance of this issue. What can people listening do about this?

Amy Wicks: First I would say visit the Great Salt Lake. There are so many people who [00:25:00] have lived here for so many years and they’ve never visited the lake, and there’s this attitude that it’s just this big, stinky, salty body of water without much value and they maybe don’t realize how magical and special it is. Visit the lake, that would be the first part so that you can gain

appreciation for it, so you can see the birds, So you can see how unique this landscape is and how it’s so important for us to care about it. I would also say contact your legislators. Let them know that the lake is important to you, that you care about air quality, that you care about migratory birds, that you

care about recreation. When the [00:26:00] lake is low there used to be two marinas on the Great Salt Lake. There was one at Antelope Island and one on the south end of the lake. And now the one at Antelope Island is high and dry and has been for many years. And the one remaining marina at the south end

there are sailboats that have been pulled out of the water because there’s not enough water for the boats to be in the lake. And, we reached a record low in November of 2022, and then we had two exceptional water years for snowfall, and that brought the lake levels up. That was a gift from Mother Nature.

It wasn’t because of anything we as Utahans did to help make sure that there was more water going to the lake. And so now we’re facing that same problem again, like sailboats [00:27:00] are being taken out of the water. It’s hard to get through the channel at the marina, and I have a friend who I go sailing with.

He is 86 and a half years old. He taught himself how to sail by reading books, and I go out on the sailboat with Larry and it’s just magical. You get to see so many different aspects of the lake that you don’t appreciate from other vantage points. But he said something to me when the lake reached a record low level and the marina was closed and there were no sailboats.

And he said I’m an old man. I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to sail on the lake again. And because of those two wet years, we were able to go out. But, We’re not too far from that record low level again, and we had hoped that reaching the record low level would sound the alarm [00:28:00] that we needed to do more, that we needed to do better, that we needed to enact

good public policy measures that have been enacted in other states to encourage water conservation and make sure that there’s adequate water for a lake to continue to be a lake or for a river to continue to be a river. And that it just seems like there’s been a lot of talk, but not so much action.

And the lake levels speak to that. We’re pretty low right now, and we’re about nine feet below where we need to be, and that’s about 4.5 million acre feet. And that would be, to kind of put that into perspective, that would be every man, woman, child industry, all of the water uses in the Great Salt Lake Basin would need to come to a complete stop [00:29:00] for four and a half years to deliver that amount of water to the lake.

And it’s kind of daunting at times, but I think there are some solutions and there are a lot of wasteful uses of water that we can address. And there’s some low hanging fruit that’s pretty easy to get at. you water your lawn less, you change your landscaping.

You look for different ways to use that water and use that water for the benefit of the lake instead of Kentucky Bluegrass 

Thomas Hynes: and visit the lake. Yes. I love that. I really I’m a big believer in that, and not to get into like I always go off topic, but not to get too far off topic, but you know, when you hear about Jane Goodall, Richard Attenborough, other people just I am thinking of people locally here in New York who are environmentalists who are [00:30:00] working to protect a species or a water body, it’s because they experienced it. It’s not because they’re doing it out of, I mean, they are doing it outta the good of their heart, obviously, but there’s something real and visceral, not in the abstract, what you’re saying makes all sense in the world to me.

I, yeah, let’s protect this, but if I were there and you’re smelling it and seeing it, feeling it, hearing it I think that’s the strongest case that can be made for it. And I heard you say that this is all very daunting and I don’t doubt that, but I’m looking at this from the perspective of saying, well. Thank goodness you’re working on it, and thank goodness someone is doing something and I am sure that it is hugely uphill or in some other lake elevation metaphor. But I’m relieved that someone’s doing something and that you’re the one doing it. So thank you for that. Just as a citizen of the world.I appreciate what you’re doing

Amy Wicks: and that seems like what the state’s going to do if they don’t address the problem. I think what they’re going to do is manage the great Salt Lake, like other saline lakes around the world have been managed, where you just shrink it and shrink it to the point that it disappears.

Thomas Hynes: But that’s totally [00:34:00] unacceptable. Yeah. I mean, for a number of reasons, but just also for all the reasons that you outlined. It’s not just you’re losing this resource. You’re creating new problems. And beyond the birds, which are worthy enough of saving the lake just for the birds.

But I mean you’re causing like true human health impacts. You’re, I mean, business opportunities, recreation money, tourism money, I mean, it is. The nicest way I can say this is that it’s very frustrating and shortsighted. And I just am I’m glad that you’re raising this issue because it’s, that’s kind of maddening.

Amy Wicks: Yeah. And Utah’s legislators there have been groups that have visited Owens Lake. Looking at what happened there with Owens Lake that was dried by diverting the Owens River, and they have spent $2.5 billion to date to mitigate the dust and the difference between Owens Lake and the Great Salt Lake is Owens Lake is one 16th, one 17th, the [00:35:00] size of the Great Salt Lake and the population surrounding it was about 12 million people. So it’s a much larger problem and 15% of every utility bill paid by the Los Angeles Water and Power District customers goes toward mitigation efforts to deal with the dust problem on Owens Lake, and it’s ironically, it’s using water, it’s spraying water on those exposed areas of lakebed to prevent the dust.

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. Maybe if you just left the water there in the first place, it wouldn’t be a problem. 

Amy Wicks: Exactly. Well, and I mean, that begs the question like how if we can’t come up with water to save the lake, how are we going to come up with water to mitigate the dust even? 

There was a recent article talking about some aquifers and like, do we wanna do that? We live in a very seismically active area and [00:36:00] that messing with that changes some things. There’s just a whole bunch of concerns with that. 

Thomas Hynes: I think what’s also very hard to get my head around is that the point you’re making about like, we’re gonna use more water to replicate the thing that the water should have done in the first place, and now we’re gonna draw water out of an aquifer that’s maybe gonna increase the chance of earthquakes.

 It’s like, what if we just use less water for lawns and golf courses? What if instead of creating new problems by solving a problem, why don’t we just slow down on the unsustainable practices that we are doing. because now we’re talking about earthquakes. I mean, this is kind of, well,

Amy Wicks: and they’re talking about damming the Bear River, which provides about 60% of the surface water going into the Great Salt Lake.

So you dam that river and pipe it to thirsty communities along the Wasatch front, 

Thomas Hynes: right? 

Amy Wicks: That further jeopardizes it, and all of us will be on the hook to pay for that for [00:37:00] decades to come. And that doesn’t even include dust mitigation costs.

Thomas Hynes: And dams, I mean, I feel like we’re on the other side of that issue, right?

Yeah. I mean, it’s like we’re trying to get dams down. We’re not trying to build new dams. Yeah. I mean, that’s not a solution. Yeah. That’s definitely not a solution. Yeah. 

Amy Wicks: Yeah, it’s not. I mean, that’s what was so lovely about the Yampa, the river is allowed to be a river, yeah.

Thomas Hynes: For our listeners Amy has joined us after a blissful and technology free screen free week on the Yampa River coming from Colorado into Utah the confluence with the Green River.

Do I have that right?

Amy Wicks: Yes. It goes through Dinosaur National Monument and ends up just outside of Vernal, Utah. 

Thomas Hynes: That sounds nice. 

Amy Wicks: Yeah. 

Thomas Hynes: But a dam would put a stop to all that and have a million other bad downstream literal and figurative impacts. 

Well, Amy, this has been so great speaking to you. It’s so good to see you again, and I’m just, I feel very at once worried and encouraged by the situation in Utah.

 But I’m [00:38:00] relieved for the Waterkeeper movement and, just, The birds of the world and just the, just the health of the worldwide interconnected ecosystem that there is a voice working to protect this water body and raising this issue and laying clear the problem and presenting all of these solutions.

 So thank you for being here today. Thank you for all the work you do. 

Amy Wicks: Well, thank you. And there are solutions. That’s the thing. The Utah Rivers Council invested a lot of time and research into coming up with 12 solid policy solutions that will deliver water to the Great Salt Lake in a meaningful way.

In a way that will bring it up to sustainable levels. And it’s not gonna happen overnight. This is probably a 20 year thing. But it is possible. And Utah is hosting the Olympics in nine years. And you wonder if people flying in for the Olympics are going to see [00:39:00] a healthy, vibrant, intact, great salt lake, or if it’s just going to be a vast bed, a desiccated lake with not much lake there, which is Salt Lake City.

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. Is that the new name? Just be city. Well, let’s hope for better days. Amy, again, thank you so much for being here. It’s been great talking to you.

Part 2

Liliana Guerrero

Thomas Hynes: [00:00:00] Our next guest is Liliana Guerrero of Bocas de Ceniza Waterkeeper in Barranquilla, Columbia. Liliana is a lawyer from the University of Cartagena with over 20 years of professional experience and serves as an advisor to the  Cartagena Environmental Authority on water management and biodiversity management. In 2022, International River’s honored her as one of the most outstanding women river defenders.

She’s currently one of the promoters of the legislative initiative that seeks to recognize Columbia’s rivers and all water sources as legal entities. Liliana, thank you so much for being with us today. It’s great to see you again. So happy to have you here. 

Liliana Guerrero: Thank you, Tom. Thank you for inviting me to participate in this episode of the Waterkeeper Alliance podcast.

Thomas Hynes: Thank you. Now I’ve had the great privilege of speaking with you and learning about your work. But for everyone else listening. Please tell me about your work and the work of Bocas de Ceniza [00:01:00] Waterkeeper . Excuse my terrible pronunciation. 

Liliana Guerrero: No, it’s okay. It’s okay. At Bocas de Ceniza Waterkeeper , we focus on defending aquatic ecosystems, especially rivers, wetlands, and coastal zones.

True community empowerment, legal advocacy, environmental monitoring, and public participation. Our work is grounded in water justice and in the belief that healthy ecosystems are essential to human dignity and peace. Currently, as you mentioned in the introduction, I am coordinating a legislative effort to create a national system for the protection of rivers in Colombia.

With other organizations, other two organizations, this initiative seeks to recognize rivers with a special, ecological, cultural, or historical value as [00:02:00] entities requiring legal protection in some cases, even as subjects of rights, we are holding round tables with senators and the advisors, and also with officers from environmental ministry aiming to build consensus and hopefully

fight the bill during the next legislative session that starts on 20th July or maybe no more than two weeks after this date. It’s a complex process because Columbia is facing a significant political polarization and there are many competing legislative interests. But we are trying to bridge those divides by connecting grassroots voices.

Science and legal strategy, and we believe this process is already shifting the [00:03:00] narrative about rivers in Colombia.

Thomas Hynes: So Liliana, earlier in this episode we spoke to Amy at Great Salt Lake Waterkeeper in Utah, in the United States, about her protection of the local wetlands and her watershed. 

Can you tell me about the importance of wetlands and Ramsar sites in Columbia as critical habitats for aquatic and migratory birds? 

Liliana Guerrero: Yes. And let me start with the basics. According to the Ramsar Convention, wetlands are not just swamps or marshes. They include a wide variety of ecosystems such as rivers, lakes, to reef mangrove, coral reef pitlands, and even human made wetlands like reserves or rice paddies.

 The convention defines wetlands very broadly as any area where water is the primary factor, controlling the environment and the life within it. The RAMSAR Convention adopted in [00:04:00] 1971 in RAMSAR which is a city of Iran, has become one of the most successful international environmental agreements.

Its legally binding and encourages countries not only to designate wetlands of international importance called Ramsar sites. But also to promote the wise use of all wetlands within their territories. This is key RAMSAR doesn’t only protect the designated sites, it also pushes governments to a strengthened wetland policy as a whole.

In Colombia, we have currently 12 designated RAMSAR sites covering a total of over 1.8 million hectares. This includes iconic ecosystems like the Sierra Grande the Santa Marta which is part of a biggest RAMSAR site. That [00:05:00] includes the Magdalena River Delta. And each of these sites plays a critical role in in the biodiversity conservation, water regulation and climate adaptation.

But wetlands in Colombia as in most of the world are in trouble. According to national data, more than 60% of Columbia’s wetlands have been degraded, mainly due to deforestation, contamination infrastructure projects, and the effects of climate change. And globally, 35% of the world’s wetland have disappeared just in the last 50 years, which is a loss rate three times faster than forests.

Now, being designated as a RAMSAR site does make a difference. It gives the wetland international visibility, requires the government to implement management measures and [00:06:00] opens the door to global cooperation and technical support. It also comes with accountability mechanisms. For example, if a site is under threat, it can be added to the record, which is like an alert system from RAMSAR site endangered.

Columbia currently has one site on the Montreal record which is Sierra Grande de Santa Marta and the Magdalena River Delta., which has suffered severe ecological damage due to hydrological, interventions and agricultural expansion. The RAMSAR Secretariat also promotes the creation of National RAMSAR advisories committees, which are in Interinstitutional and multi stakeholder bodies.

designed to improve wetland governance and guide restoration efforts in my city. This is our water bodies. One called [00:07:00] Sienna King and this one is part of this RAMSAR site I mentioned before. SNA Grande de Santa Marta. And SNA King is within my city, with Magdalena River and Caribbean Sea.

One of the most iconic roles of wetlands, especially ramsar sites, is as very important as critical habitat for aquatic and migratory birds. Wetlands are nesting, feeding and stove overground for millions of birds moving across the Americas. In Colombia alone, we receive more than 190 migratory bird species every year, including ducks, shore birds, heroins, terren, which travel thousands of kilometers from North America.

Some of these birds depend on RAMSAR sites in Colombia, like la,[00:08:00] 

these Wetlands act like airports for migration and the destructions would mean the collapse of entire migratory roots. So when we protect wetlands, especially ramar sites, we are not just protecting local ecosystems. We are helping maintain global ecological connectivity, water security, and the survival of a species that literally fly across continents. 

Thomas Hynes: 190 species of birds. That’s almost hard to get your head around. That’s incredible. And I love what you said about the wetlands acting as airports to get, to ferry these species on , these huge transcontinental voyages.

It’s unbelievable. Can you tell me about the role that civil society and Waterkeeper groups play in protecting these [00:09:00] ecosystems? 

Liliana Guerrero: Yes. civil society and particularly community led programs like waterkeepers, plays a fundamental and irreplaceable role in protected wetlands, rivers, and other aquatic ecosystems.

We are often the first line of defense when environmental degradation begins. Local organizations are closely connected to the territories and communities, which allows them to respond quickly and directly to threats, whether it is pollution and regulated development or ecosystem degradation.

 Waterkeeper programs can support these efforts in many ways from a company, local communities to contributing legal, scientific, or technical expertise, or even by amplifying grassroots voices that are calling for better protection of wetlands aquatic systems. In many cases, civil society organizations have played a central role in [00:10:00] pushing for government action.

So such as requesting ramsar advisory missions, or advocating for size to be added to the Montreal record when the ecological character is at risk. Like happened, with the SNA Grande Santa Marta site I mentioned before, which is now in the Montreal record. These are tools under the RAMSAR convention that help bring international attention and technical support to wetlands in danger.

Although Waterkeeper programs may not always lead these processes, we can certainly join national or regional networks and help ensure that international commitments like those on the RAMSAR are respected and implementing on the ground. Another key contribution of civil society advocating for inclusive [00:11:00] and participatory wetland governance.

One example is promoting the activation of national RAMSAR advisory committees which are multi-stakeholder bodies that include government, agencies, communities, and technical experts. These committees can strengthen transparency, improve wetland management, and make sure diverse voices are heard.

Waterkeeper programs can also play an important role in defending environmental defenders offering legal and technical support in territories were standing up for water or wetlands , in dangers, and we help translate global frameworks into local action. For example bringing Ramsar principles or the targets of the community, Montreal Global Biodiversity Framework into community restoration projects or [00:12:00] local regard reforms.

Thomas Hynes: That’s excellent. That’s a great answer, Liliana. Thank you so much. And thinking about beyond the civil society groups and just more about being a part of Waterkeeper Alliance, how has that strengthened your capacity to engage in these global conversations? 

Liliana Guerrero: Tom, being part of Waterkeeper Alliance has had a meaningful impact on my work, both personally and institutionally. For one, it has given our local organization greater legitimacy and visibility, allowing us to engage in spaces that might otherwise be difficult to access. It reinforces the fact that our work in defending rivers, wetlands and coastal ecosystems is part of a much larger global movement for water justice.

One of the [00:13:00] most important benefits has been the opportunity to connect and learn from other Waterkeeper programs, whether in Latin America, north America, or other parts of the world. Even that each context is different. We face similar challenges, pollution, weak enforcement of environmental laws, community displacement and biodiversity laws sharing strategies and experiences help us grow stronger faster.

The alliance has also supported our force by offering technical and legal training, making resources available in Spanish, for example, and creating regional spaces for coordinations. These tools have helped us improve our advocacy, monitoring, and communication, and the ability to build cross border solidarity.

We don’t feel isolated in our struggles. Being part of this [00:14:00] network has also opened the door to global conversation. It has allowed me and others in our region, in Latin American region, to participate in international forums, convention on biological diversity. For example that the last COP was in Columbia last year, and I had the opportunity to participate in the UN International Water Conference and other water keepers

have participated in other UN spaces and convention and for example climate conventions and recently the UN ocean convention. I think one of the most valuable aspects of Waterkeeper Alliance is that it combines grassroots strength with global reach. It’s not [00:15:00] just a professional network.

It’s a community of people who care deeply about water justice and the future of life on earth. And that shared commitment is what give our work true depth and resilience.

Thomas Hynes: That’s another wonderful answer. And , one thing that strikes me you say that your work is made stronger by being a member of Waterkeeper Alliance, but I will say that Waterkeeper Alliance is stronger by having you as a part of it. I want to thank you so much for being here today.

It’s great to speak with you again, and I look forward to seeing you again. I’m not sure when that’ll be, but hopefully we’ll get together again before too long. Thank you so much for being here today. 

Liliana Guerrero: Thank you, Tom.