Equity In Every Drop: Series Four, Episode Two

In this episode, host Thomas Hynes interviews Sharif Jamil, the Buriganga Riverkeeper and coordinator of Waterkeepers Bangladesh. Sharif, a global environmental leader, shares his journey from personal connection to Bangladesh’s rivers to becoming an activist and leader in water protection. He discusses the challenges faced by rivers in Bangladesh, such as industrial pollution and urban encroachment, and celebrates the victories, including raising awareness and securing legal recognition for rivers. Sharif reflects on the value of being part of the Waterkeeper Alliance, emphasizing the strength of the network and the shared passion among waterkeepers worldwide.

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Thank you for listening, sharing, and supporting our mission to ensure everyone’s right to clean water. Together, we demand equity in every drop.

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Transcript – Series 4, Episode 2: Protecting Bangladesh’s Rivers

[00:00:00] Thomas Hynes: My guest today is Sharif Jamil. Sharif is the Buriganga Riverkeeper. He’s also the coordinator of Waterkeepers Bangladesh, and a member of the Waterkeeper Alliance Board of Directors.

Sharif is an internationally recognized leader and activist in the global environmental movement. In fact, we are catching him today after just returning from Bangkok and the day before he flies to Frankfurt on a day where I know he’s full of meetings and very much in demand.

Sharif, it’s great to see you. We’re lucky to see you. How are you today? 

Sharif Jamil: Tom, good morning there. I’m very happy to be with you now, but as you said, I came from traveling and I’m again traveling, but this all meeting, like work and only a couple of days in between, a lot of work. But I’m very happy that I could get a chance to talk to you here.

Thank you for having me. 

Thomas Hynes: We’re very happy to have you. I want to talk today about your story and about your part of the world and the work that you’re doing. And I guess the first question I have [00:01:00] is, what inspired you to become a Waterkeeper? But even before that, like what inspired you to get involved in environmental protection and in water protection in the first place?

Sharif Jamil: Well, Bangladesh is the lowest riparian country in the Ganges and Brahmaputra River systems. So it’s part of largest active delta in the world, and it is very densely populated and

everywhere there is all civilization and development and human settlement that took place by the bank of some river based on rivers

communication was river island. And I was also very, I mean like I got bought in a place which is like maybe a hundred yards from river Khowai. So I was also very much attached to the river and I saw how the water would come inside the patty fields around our home. And how the siltation would be happening and , I was actually looking at the cauliflower

they would cultivate after the flash flood. It would go because of the fertile land. [00:02:00] So I didn’t know all these things when I was growing up in my childhood. But when I grew up and I started seeing the people, activism, doing good things for nation and how, what is, like how when I can start seeing  Buriganga and more, then I felt like, well, I mean everybody will go one day, but what do we are living for?

And whatever I got from this art, 

at least I should leave that for the next generation. As simple as it is, if I want something tangible, even in maybe Dhaka City, then I should find that thing if Dhaka will sustain. Then I started thinking how I can work for the protection of the country, nation and its population.

And then first came is river, because in the schools we learned Bangladesh. That means rivers are the mother of this land, which is also true actually the siltation coming from the upstream made this land. Then I [00:03:00] started something good to protect the environment in order and got a chance to mix with the good people who actually were thinking these good things and started activism with one of the civic platforms.

They then very newly started, but I got a chance to work with them. So I started protecting the Dhaka River. Basically it was for the, and it’s not, I was not starting it. That movement was started by other civic leaderships, but I got a chance to work with them. And then once I thought, well, this river movement should be growing and it should be crossing the boundary of the

city or one particular river because city, river, and country. So there is also a story. I got a fellowship and I was one of the prospective leaders on environmental movement am Buriganga the developing countries in the world. It was awarded by both ends the Netherlands and then I was one of the [00:04:00] seven in the world and four of us were there

taken to Amsterdam to award it and it was like a good, handsome amount of money to develop my leadership capacity. Then we were asked, what will you do with that money to develop our leadership capacity? Then everybody was doing like going conference, doing like, training or leadership learning or something courses.

But I said I would spread the river saving movement across the country. So I started the civic movement in different rivers in the country. Some of them are still big movements, like the protection of Suma River Waterkeeper He has started working for Suma River. Didn’t. There are many like movement. There are many, I mean like Khowai those started those days.

There are many other who did those did not survive as movement. But that was my starting as the movement or community organizations for [00:05:00] we were saving in the country. 

Thomas Hynes: So you were awarded this grant and instead of going to attend conferences, you basically started a bunch of other river protection, basically a river protection network of different rivers throughout.

Yeah, so Sharif and I spoke about a month or two ago for one of these, I guess affiliates, the Khowai River Waterkeeper. Yeah. Yeah. And there’s several others throughout the country that’s an incredible legacy. Tell me more about the Buriganga River though, and tell me about what led you to kind of to start Buriganga riverkeeper and take that on.

Sharif Jamil: It is very interesting that this podcast, I’m doing this today, many people will tell me I should write because I have been going through a Buriganga time in the reversing movement in Bangladesh. It is great that I’m getting some opportunity to keep this recorded. I mean, like, working for the Buriganga and being Buriganga Riverkeeper is a big story.

 When we started this civic movement and I was working as a activist, young activist, there are other [00:06:00] civic society leaders who take part in say that this river should be protected. Some are very personalities. In terms of civil society, respect and knowledge and so government said, okay, yes, we also agree that the river Buriganga should be protected if we want to protect the capital city.

By the way, I mean many people do not know Buriganga is very small river It is maybe 18 to 21 kilometer, kind of, but it is very important because it’s the capital city actually developed by the bank of this river 300 to 400 years ago. So it is connecting the entire southern part of the country in terms of the navigational transportation and communication system.

 So it’s largest land port in the country. So Buriganga is very important for many other reasons. So civic movement was there to protect the river Buriganga, and then government said, okay, yes, we also want to protect it. Okay, come together. Let’s make task force. And you say how to protect it. [00:07:00] So from civic movement, demanding to protect the river is easy.

You can see a dirty, toxic river you can demand we want it to be like water. It should be pollution free. If you see the encroachment is going on or rivers are being grabbed, you can say don’t grab river. Keep it like free flowing. But to tell how to do that is not that easy. So then that civic leadership started exploding how we can do that.

And I was very active as an activist youth, so I was searching and there was other civic leaders who were also in touch with them. And then we found Waterkeeper Alliance idea that waterkeeper is someone who is passionate for the water body, knowledgeable in the water body, patrols, the water body , and engage the community and also mitigate the gap between the different authorities and organizations in term to protecting the water body.

So [00:08:00] that is a very unique approach from civil society to support any effort to protect this water body. And in a brief, it’s like when a waterkeeper talks, it’s like the water body talks. So we decided to communicate with Waterkeeper Alliance. And I still remember Scott Edward, the director, the legal director, he came to Delhi with Banda Nashiba, very honorable civic leadership in India.

 And he came to Delhi. And I went to Delhi and we had meeting and he was asking me like, you already work for the River  Buriganga ? I said, yes, we work for the River  Buriganga . You can organize meeting with the civic leaderships and community. Yes, we can do that. Then he said, okay, let’s go to Bangladesh and you organize a meeting.

I organized it from Delhi and we came together to Bangladesh and he participated and he was so happy because it was [00:09:00] very big meeting yeah, by the Bank of River. I took him to the story. Yeah. So then we started processing and I become, like first member of Waterkeeper Alliance in Bangladesh.

And I can remember it was in New York in 2009. And Bill Clinton was our guest.

Thomas Hynes: Oh, wow.

Sharif Jamil: And Oh yeah. Yeah. And Kennedy and Bill Clinton, they were all there and they declared, not me, or along with other new waterkeepers. They declared the new waterkeepers. I can remember Bobby was telling he is our future leader in Asia.

Anyway, then there was a discussion I shouldn’t be telling, maybe in the podcast. Yeah. But I was very proud then. Okay. Like it’s a strength because fighting river, rivers river Buriganga is city River, so capital city, rivers, densely populated city. So you know, like huge [00:10:00] pressure. One inch river area is low, like money more than New York.

The land cost in Dhaka is sometimes more than New York. 

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. But to that end the threat of the urban river, now, I’m calling you, I’m looking at the river in New York City right now.

And I’m seeing, I’ve never been to dhaka, but I can see that it’s probably more densely populated. what are some of the threats facing the river? Just what are some of the challenges that you have in trying to protect it? 

Sharif Jamil: Well, you’ve never been to Dhaka, so you don’t have any idea what that is.

Yeah, it’s like around 50,000 people in one square kilometer.

In the slum areas, it is like a hundred thousand, 150,000 people in one square kilometer. So it’s very densely populated, maybe I don’t know. It’s not more, maybe it’s most densely populated capital city. I don’t know. 

Thomas Hynes: It’s up there. It sounds like. It’s certainly up there. Yeah.

Sharif Jamil: Yeah. So there is [00:11:00] industrial pollution, like the tannery, when in seventies , this country got independence in 1971. And in the seventies there were tannery factories in, which is not right in the capital, it is the suburb district so government decided to bring those tannery industries in

an area inside first it was by the Bank of Buriganga, so the tannery were polluting the river directly, like around 200 tannery industries at the end. So it was a big pollution for Buriganga, tannery pollution. But, encroachment was also a big problem

for Dhaka because this city

Thomas Hynes: now, by encroachment you mean just development right up on the waterline, like right up to the river? Yeah. Yeah.

Sharif Jamil: Just filling it up or making buildings. during last government, the flat plain or foreshore Of Buriganga[00:12:00] River were like filled up like anything. Hundred of multi-story building came up in the last 10 years.

Thomas Hynes: In the flood plain,

Sharif Jamil: in the flood plain, and foreshore not flood plain, foreshore

It’s a Delta River. So River had three parts of the river. It’s like Riverbed, which is the lean period flow. And there is spring flow or high tide. So high tide to low tide is foreshore. So there are many places where there is no bank. So the river, not just with the flood plains.

Thomas Hynes: So this increases flooding and brings all kinds of 

Sharif Jamil: Yeah. That is the history and formation of this land. We actually changed it. We put embankments, we put boulders. We wanted to protect the flooding, so we put Sleuth gates. We wanted more food production. So the ecosystem is now actually.

Very in mixed it is not properly going forward. [00:13:00] We should go for open approach, like to let the river get its room. We’re not giving it like that. Yeah, 

Thomas Hynes: Basically let the river go where it wants to go rather than, is that what you mean by that? Yes.

Sharif Jamil: Yeah. I mean, like, your townships should be following the ecosystem.

It’s not like contradictory or conflicting with the ecosystem. We’re building our city, but not keeping as, for example, Buriganga. Eventually all the storm water like, even whatever you have inside the city, it’ll go to the sea through river Buriganga. So if you don’t keep the river, then you will be also in trouble because the city will be in trouble.

And that’s what we are experiencing in Dhaka. Buriganga is becoming narrow channel and Dhaka city streets are flooded during the monsoon.

Thomas Hynes: I wanna move on to some of the successes, but are there other threats and challenges that you’re encountering besides encroachment?

I [00:14:00] think just the, like the urban pressures.

Sharif Jamil: There are challenges. There are good people in the community also who want to protect the river. And who we work with. Otherwise we could not work. There was not community working with us.

They are more vulnerable than us because they’re threatened. They got, I have like one of our, volunteers who actually got false cases and like intimidation In terms of protecting the river, I feel like there is a gap between the policy makers and implementing agencies together with the community. People think in one way and they think in other way, or there’s a gap between them. Otherwise there are many efforts. There are code verdicts, how this river can be protected, but those are not implemented properly.

That’s a problem.

Thomas Hynes: I mean, that’s a problem we have here and in a lot of places, right? I mean, we have these well-intended laws that are not enforced. We have community support for [00:15:00] protection, and then the implementation is where things seem to fall down. Thinking through some of those threats and challenges, let’s look at the other side.

What are some of, what are the, some of the things that you’re most proud of that you’ve accomplished in this role? 

Sharif Jamil: Well, I’m proud to see that a lot of people are now sensitive and, like, supporting the reality and truth that we should protect our rivers Buriganga needs to be protected if we want to protect the city Dhaka.

people and more population are actually supportive to that which is good. And also there are many legal frameworks and authorities and government efforts maybe, apparently maybe in on paper, but still those are like happening.

Quotes are coming up with very, very knowledgeable and very far sighting. verdicts 

Bangladesh is the only country in the world where all the rivers are getting the status of living [00:16:00] entity from the court. Yes. There are some section of a river in some country, or maybe it started in other country, but it’s only section of a river. Bangladesh court says all the rivers will have legal

right. And they gave parental right to the National River Conservation Commission which is unique. And they ask the River Conservation Commission to be strengthened and as the legal frameworks they have should be also strengthened so that they can coordinate the line ministries when they’re working with the rivers.

So this kind of very far sighting directives are there,

but it’s not implemented. That’s the problem.

Thomas Hynes: I didn’t realize that about the legal status of all rivers in Bangladesh.

Sharif Jamil: Yeah. 

Thomas Hynes: That’s incredible. That’s very encouraging. 

Yeah. This is a question I ask everybody, but it’s admittedly a little silly.

I think I may have asked when we met a couple weeks ago. If you could change one thing overnight with like a magic [00:17:00] wand, or you could flip a switch and make one change, or any any number of changes, what would you like to see happen immediately? , If you had your way?

Sharif Jamil: I would try not to destroy the river. There is a lot of efforts to save the river . Like there is eviction drive, there is cleaning effort, there is this and that, but nobody stops grabbing. Nobody stops polluting. Before you protect the rivers, you please stop destructing. That is what people are not following, but it’s very simple.

Yeah. You’ll stop destruction to our river system. Natural will bring it back because it is mighty Ganges and Brahmaputra that will find its own way. That will kill up everything. You just let it be. We don’t do that. We continuously do the distractions to our river systems. That’s the problem. 

Thomas Hynes: That’s a great answer and I completely agree, and I think about that a lot in my own local ecosystems and just in general, it’s that, just let nature heal itself. Let [00:18:00] nature do its own thing. There’s, yeah, and there’s this yeah. That’s, there’s so many natural systems and natural solutions for recovery that if we can just get out of the way. Yeah. We don’t actually have to actively

save it, we just have to stop punishing it.

We have to stop destroying it. That’s a great answer. And there are so many examples of that here in New York and throughout Europe and throughout the world. Of just that, that just get our nasty human impact out of the way and let the river, like you said, this is the mighty Brahmaputra, this is the mighty ganges

Like who are we to get in there and what folly and hubris to think that we could tell this river what to do that we know better than these natural systems. When what we really just need to stop doing is destroying it. That’s a great answer.

 So Sharif, your story is so interesting to me because you’re not just a riverkeeper. You also started this national geographical entity of Waterkeepers Bangladesh.

You’re also on the Waterkeeper Alliance board. How has being a member of Waterkeeper Alliance helped you in this work? What has it meant to you?

Sharif Jamil: [00:19:00] Well, Waterkeeper Alliance does not give you funding. So, many people in this is not only Bangladesh, maybe in the developing countries have an idea that Relationship with an international organizations will only can give you funds, and that’s the biggest strength. But that’s not true that I felt from Waterkeeper Alliance because this network itself is so strong . That is what I was trying to say during the last discussion I mean. We feel is family.

Like we are some people who work really not like normal, traditional activist or worker for development sector. We work to protect the water body, like with passion, and that’s why we are meant to be Waterkeeper. That is the essence of the membership. That’s why the Waterkeeper Alliance different than other NGOs who are working for the nature.

[00:20:00] We want to protect it or whether there is fund. There is no project, there is money, doesn’t matter. We’ll talk for the water body because we feel like when we talk, the water body talks. So it’s the responsibility that is not like you are serving for anything. You are doing it for the river and we’re dedicated for it.

So when I see the waterkeeper memberships, I feel like a big strength. And of course knowledge because similar problems are in many river systems. So many countries are dealing with in many ways. You get the knowledge about the technology. You get knowledge and support about solving the problem and how you encountering any problem in many ways.

Then it’s a big alliance, big family. That’s huge. Despite the network we have in different parts of the world it’s a knowledge bank, but [00:21:00] apart from them it’s a very big strength.

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. Yeah I’ve asked that question to maybe 50 or 60 waterkeepers in this capacity of, of, of either writing about waterkeepers or interviewing waterkeepers to the podcast.

 And it seems to me that the answer is usually some version of like other waterkeepers, it’s that it’s the network, it’s the other people that you get to the knowledge bank that you get to draw on, and whether that’s through the emails or through even the in-person summits and conferences.

And you’ve traveled a lot. I mean, i’ve met you in New York. I’ve met you in Milwaukee. I’ve met you in Washington DC and that’s just in this country. And I know that we have our Asian Regional Summit coming up and those were on hold briefly for COVID, but they’ve been back the last couple years.

And I know, I’m sure you’ve been to many of them. What is the feeling of being at like a summit or even the global conference? 

Sharif Jamil: Yeah. The two things, our global conferences are not like ordinary gathering. We are pegged with so many parallel discussions [00:22:00] on very important and very like contemporary topics.

We discuss about the things that are helpful for the movement we are doing on ground here. So it’s a huge engagement and knowledge and also networking with new people. There are many people coming from different parts of the, not discipline only, but from the different parts of world. So it’s very different and it’s not the traditional conference.

we have for other issues. It’s like a family members meeting each other. Our conferences starts at six o’clock in the morning, but it does not end at 6, 8, 10, 12 in the evening or midnight. Yeah. So at some extent it continues. So four days, we just be with each other and we gather knowledge, we gather strength, we know our strength and weakness struggles and so many things at personal level

also, many of our members [00:23:00] you can see, it, and the relationship between us are also different. People don’t know it. And it’s really the strength. And for the regional summits, 

It is also, we have trainings in different issues, so you can get to know how you can best utilize your existing resources and activities and actions to be implemented in a better way.

That’s a very important thing because there are chunks of sessions and panels guided by multiple topics that have been selected through a process where the organizers are involved. And then also there are places we go. So we go to nature. We also try to learn from the river systems and ecosystems and nature relationship with the society.

So it’s like very different. And we said knowledge and strength again.

Thomas Hynes: So what do you think we can, like, what is a water keeper expect from these conferences and what would [00:24:00] you like to see? What do you wanna see from these gatherings and getting back together with your fellow waterkeepers? 

Sharif Jamil: Yeah, it’s great.

I mean, like, for Asia Summit we also started a process like South Asia and East. We together marched our meetings for Asia Summit. So we came up with our memberships and we set together you submit, then we identify topics, what we want to discuss.

It was so helpful by the Waterkeeper Alliance to set all this up and also, like getting Visa for the memberships in different countries and also making sure that they’re traveling on time. Getting back to home. So it’s a lot of logistics and works. Those are going forward. And this can be one thing we can improve, which is like the, when we are preparing it we can engage the resources we have [00:25:00] regionally.

to discuss about the regional issues that we are dealing with, and that might be developed by the organizations taking time ahead, maybe for the next summit. We start discussing now about panel topic and probable speakers and prepare more this kind of things and also more of like organizing together, not like putting on burden on the friends in New York

only some of the organizers will take some of the responsibilities, things like this. 

Thomas Hynes: Well, and I think it, it underscores that like the strength of this movement and maybe the strength of these summits is really relying on the waterkeepers, right? I mean, it’s, that’s the real value.

 Well, Sharif I, again, for our listeners, Sharif just got back from Bangkok. He’s got a, he is got meetings all day and he is going to, germany tomorrow, his bags are packed. I don’t think they’ve been unpacked. So Sharif, we were very lucky to talk [00:26:00] to you today. It’s always good to see you. I hope to see you again soon.

 You gave me a great t-shirt The last time we met, it was it was too big for me, but when my wife was pregnant, she wore it pretty much every day showing Waterkeeepers Bangladesh

with our unborn daughter underneath it. So I meant thank you for that. I shoulda taken a photograph, but it’s great to see you again and safe travels.

And I hope to see you soon. 

Sharif Jamil: Thank you so much, Toms. Thank you everybody. Have a good one.

[00:00:00] Thomas Hynes: My guest today is Sharif Jamil. Sharif is the Buriganga Riverkeeper. He’s also the coordinator of Waterkeepers Bangladesh, and a member of the Waterkeeper Alliance Board of Directors.

Sharif is an internationally recognized leader and activist in the global environmental movement. In fact, we are catching him today after just returning from Bangkok and the day before he flies to Frankfurt on a day where I know he’s full of meetings and very much in demand.

Sharif, it’s great to see you. We’re lucky to see you. How are you today? 

Sharif Jamil: Tom, good morning there. I’m very happy to be with you now, but as you said, I came from traveling and I’m again traveling, but this all meeting, like work and only a couple of days in between, a lot of work. But I’m very happy that I could get a chance to talk to you here.

Thank you for having me. 

Thomas Hynes: We’re very happy to have you. I want to talk today about your story and about your part of the world and the work that you’re doing. And I guess the first question I have [00:01:00] is, what inspired you to become a Waterkeeper? But even before that, like what inspired you to get involved in environmental protection and in water protection in the first place?

Sharif Jamil: Well, Bangladesh is the lowest riparian country in the Ganges and Brahmaputra River systems. So it’s part of largest active delta in the world, and it is very densely populated and

everywhere there is all civilization and development and human settlement that took place by the bank of some river based on rivers

communication was river island. And I was also very, I mean like I got bought in a place which is like maybe a hundred yards from river Khowai. So I was also very much attached to the river and I saw how the water would come inside the patty fields around our home. And how the siltation would be happening and , I was actually looking at the cauliflower

they would cultivate after the flash flood. It would go because of the fertile land. [00:02:00] So I didn’t know all these things when I was growing up in my childhood. But when I grew up and I started seeing the people, activism, doing good things for nation and how, what is, like how when I can start seeing  Buriganga and more, then I felt like, well, I mean everybody will go one day, but what do we are living for?

And whatever I got from this art, 

at least I should leave that for the next generation. As simple as it is, if I want something tangible, even in maybe Dhaka City, then I should find that thing if Dhaka will sustain. Then I started thinking how I can work for the protection of the country, nation and its population.

And then first came is river, because in the schools we learned Bangladesh. That means rivers are the mother of this land, which is also true actually the siltation coming from the upstream made this land. Then I [00:03:00] started something good to protect the environment in order and got a chance to mix with the good people who actually were thinking these good things and started activism with one of the civic platforms.

They then very newly started, but I got a chance to work with them. So I started protecting the Dhaka River. Basically it was for the, and it’s not, I was not starting it. That movement was started by other civic leaderships, but I got a chance to work with them. And then once I thought, well, this river movement should be growing and it should be crossing the boundary of the

city or one particular river because city, river, and country. So there is also a story. I got a fellowship and I was one of the prospective leaders on environmental movement am Buriganga the developing countries in the world. It was awarded by both ends the Netherlands and then I was one of the [00:04:00] seven in the world and four of us were there

taken to Amsterdam to award it and it was like a good, handsome amount of money to develop my leadership capacity. Then we were asked, what will you do with that money to develop our leadership capacity? Then everybody was doing like going conference, doing like, training or leadership learning or something courses.

But I said I would spread the river saving movement across the country. So I started the civic movement in different rivers in the country. Some of them are still big movements, like the protection of Suma River Waterkeeper He has started working for Suma River. Didn’t. There are many like movement. There are many, I mean like Khowai those started those days.

There are many other who did those did not survive as movement. But that was my starting as the movement or community organizations for [00:05:00] we were saving in the country. 

Thomas Hynes: So you were awarded this grant and instead of going to attend conferences, you basically started a bunch of other river protection, basically a river protection network of different rivers throughout.

Yeah, so Sharif and I spoke about a month or two ago for one of these, I guess affiliates, the Khowai River Waterkeeper. Yeah. Yeah. And there’s several others throughout the country that’s an incredible legacy. Tell me more about the Buriganga River though, and tell me about what led you to kind of to start Buriganga riverkeeper and take that on.

Sharif Jamil: It is very interesting that this podcast, I’m doing this today, many people will tell me I should write because I have been going through a Buriganga time in the reversing movement in Bangladesh. It is great that I’m getting some opportunity to keep this recorded. I mean, like, working for the Buriganga and being Buriganga Riverkeeper is a big story.

 When we started this civic movement and I was working as a activist, young activist, there are other [00:06:00] civic society leaders who take part in say that this river should be protected. Some are very personalities. In terms of civil society, respect and knowledge and so government said, okay, yes, we also agree that the river Buriganga should be protected if we want to protect the capital city.

By the way, I mean many people do not know Buriganga is very small river It is maybe 18 to 21 kilometer, kind of, but it is very important because it’s the capital city actually developed by the bank of this river 300 to 400 years ago. So it is connecting the entire southern part of the country in terms of the navigational transportation and communication system.

 So it’s largest land port in the country. So Buriganga is very important for many other reasons. So civic movement was there to protect the river Buriganga, and then government said, okay, yes, we also want to protect it. Okay, come together. Let’s make task force. And you say how to protect it. [00:07:00] So from civic movement, demanding to protect the river is easy.

You can see a dirty, toxic river you can demand we want it to be like water. It should be pollution free. If you see the encroachment is going on or rivers are being grabbed, you can say don’t grab river. Keep it like free flowing. But to tell how to do that is not that easy. So then that civic leadership started exploding how we can do that.

And I was very active as an activist youth, so I was searching and there was other civic leaders who were also in touch with them. And then we found Waterkeeper Alliance idea that waterkeeper is someone who is passionate for the water body, knowledgeable in the water body, patrols, the water body , and engage the community and also mitigate the gap between the different authorities and organizations in term to protecting the water body.

So [00:08:00] that is a very unique approach from civil society to support any effort to protect this water body. And in a brief, it’s like when a waterkeeper talks, it’s like the water body talks. So we decided to communicate with Waterkeeper Alliance. And I still remember Scott Edward, the director, the legal director, he came to Delhi with Banda Nashiba, very honorable civic leadership in India.

 And he came to Delhi. And I went to Delhi and we had meeting and he was asking me like, you already work for the River  Buriganga ? I said, yes, we work for the River  Buriganga . You can organize meeting with the civic leaderships and community. Yes, we can do that. Then he said, okay, let’s go to Bangladesh and you organize a meeting.

I organized it from Delhi and we came together to Bangladesh and he participated and he was so happy because it was [00:09:00] very big meeting yeah, by the Bank of River. I took him to the story. Yeah. So then we started processing and I become, like first member of Waterkeeper Alliance in Bangladesh.

And I can remember it was in New York in 2009. And Bill Clinton was our guest.

Thomas Hynes: Oh, wow.

Sharif Jamil: And Oh yeah. Yeah. And Kennedy and Bill Clinton, they were all there and they declared, not me, or along with other new waterkeepers. They declared the new waterkeepers. I can remember Bobby was telling he is our future leader in Asia.

Anyway, then there was a discussion I shouldn’t be telling, maybe in the podcast. Yeah. But I was very proud then. Okay. Like it’s a strength because fighting river, rivers river Buriganga is city River, so capital city, rivers, densely populated city. So you know, like huge [00:10:00] pressure. One inch river area is low, like money more than New York.

The land cost in Dhaka is sometimes more than New York. 

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. But to that end the threat of the urban river, now, I’m calling you, I’m looking at the river in New York City right now.

And I’m seeing, I’ve never been to dhaka, but I can see that it’s probably more densely populated. what are some of the threats facing the river? Just what are some of the challenges that you have in trying to protect it? 

Sharif Jamil: Well, you’ve never been to Dhaka, so you don’t have any idea what that is.

Yeah, it’s like around 50,000 people in one square kilometer.

In the slum areas, it is like a hundred thousand, 150,000 people in one square kilometer. So it’s very densely populated, maybe I don’t know. It’s not more, maybe it’s most densely populated capital city. I don’t know. 

Thomas Hynes: It’s up there. It sounds like. It’s certainly up there. Yeah.

Sharif Jamil: Yeah. So there is [00:11:00] industrial pollution, like the tannery, when in seventies , this country got independence in 1971. And in the seventies there were tannery factories in, which is not right in the capital, it is the suburb district so government decided to bring those tannery industries in

an area inside first it was by the Bank of Buriganga, so the tannery were polluting the river directly, like around 200 tannery industries at the end. So it was a big pollution for Buriganga, tannery pollution. But, encroachment was also a big problem

for Dhaka because this city

Thomas Hynes: now, by encroachment you mean just development right up on the waterline, like right up to the river? Yeah. Yeah.

Sharif Jamil: Just filling it up or making buildings. during last government, the flat plain or foreshore Of Buriganga[00:12:00] River were like filled up like anything. Hundred of multi-story building came up in the last 10 years.

Thomas Hynes: In the flood plain,

Sharif Jamil: in the flood plain, and foreshore not flood plain, foreshore

It’s a Delta River. So River had three parts of the river. It’s like Riverbed, which is the lean period flow. And there is spring flow or high tide. So high tide to low tide is foreshore. So there are many places where there is no bank. So the river, not just with the flood plains.

Thomas Hynes: So this increases flooding and brings all kinds of 

Sharif Jamil: Yeah. That is the history and formation of this land. We actually changed it. We put embankments, we put boulders. We wanted to protect the flooding, so we put Sleuth gates. We wanted more food production. So the ecosystem is now actually.

Very in mixed it is not properly going forward. [00:13:00] We should go for open approach, like to let the river get its room. We’re not giving it like that. Yeah, 

Thomas Hynes: Basically let the river go where it wants to go rather than, is that what you mean by that? Yes.

Sharif Jamil: Yeah. I mean, like, your townships should be following the ecosystem.

It’s not like contradictory or conflicting with the ecosystem. We’re building our city, but not keeping as, for example, Buriganga. Eventually all the storm water like, even whatever you have inside the city, it’ll go to the sea through river Buriganga. So if you don’t keep the river, then you will be also in trouble because the city will be in trouble.

And that’s what we are experiencing in Dhaka. Buriganga is becoming narrow channel and Dhaka city streets are flooded during the monsoon.

Thomas Hynes: I wanna move on to some of the successes, but are there other threats and challenges that you’re encountering besides encroachment?

I [00:14:00] think just the, like the urban pressures.

Sharif Jamil: There are challenges. There are good people in the community also who want to protect the river. And who we work with. Otherwise we could not work. There was not community working with us.

They are more vulnerable than us because they’re threatened. They got, I have like one of our, volunteers who actually got false cases and like intimidation In terms of protecting the river, I feel like there is a gap between the policy makers and implementing agencies together with the community. People think in one way and they think in other way, or there’s a gap between them. Otherwise there are many efforts. There are code verdicts, how this river can be protected, but those are not implemented properly.

That’s a problem.

Thomas Hynes: I mean, that’s a problem we have here and in a lot of places, right? I mean, we have these well-intended laws that are not enforced. We have community support for [00:15:00] protection, and then the implementation is where things seem to fall down. Thinking through some of those threats and challenges, let’s look at the other side.

What are some of, what are the, some of the things that you’re most proud of that you’ve accomplished in this role? 

Sharif Jamil: Well, I’m proud to see that a lot of people are now sensitive and, like, supporting the reality and truth that we should protect our rivers Buriganga needs to be protected if we want to protect the city Dhaka.

people and more population are actually supportive to that which is good. And also there are many legal frameworks and authorities and government efforts maybe, apparently maybe in on paper, but still those are like happening.

Quotes are coming up with very, very knowledgeable and very far sighting. verdicts 

Bangladesh is the only country in the world where all the rivers are getting the status of living [00:16:00] entity from the court. Yes. There are some section of a river in some country, or maybe it started in other country, but it’s only section of a river. Bangladesh court says all the rivers will have legal

right. And they gave parental right to the National River Conservation Commission which is unique. And they ask the River Conservation Commission to be strengthened and as the legal frameworks they have should be also strengthened so that they can coordinate the line ministries when they’re working with the rivers.

So this kind of very far sighting directives are there,

but it’s not implemented. That’s the problem.

Thomas Hynes: I didn’t realize that about the legal status of all rivers in Bangladesh.

Sharif Jamil: Yeah. 

Thomas Hynes: That’s incredible. That’s very encouraging. 

Yeah. This is a question I ask everybody, but it’s admittedly a little silly.

I think I may have asked when we met a couple weeks ago. If you could change one thing overnight with like a magic [00:17:00] wand, or you could flip a switch and make one change, or any any number of changes, what would you like to see happen immediately? , If you had your way?

Sharif Jamil: I would try not to destroy the river. There is a lot of efforts to save the river . Like there is eviction drive, there is cleaning effort, there is this and that, but nobody stops grabbing. Nobody stops polluting. Before you protect the rivers, you please stop destructing. That is what people are not following, but it’s very simple.

Yeah. You’ll stop destruction to our river system. Natural will bring it back because it is mighty Ganges and Brahmaputra that will find its own way. That will kill up everything. You just let it be. We don’t do that. We continuously do the distractions to our river systems. That’s the problem. 

Thomas Hynes: That’s a great answer and I completely agree, and I think about that a lot in my own local ecosystems and just in general, it’s that, just let nature heal itself. Let [00:18:00] nature do its own thing. There’s, yeah, and there’s this yeah. That’s, there’s so many natural systems and natural solutions for recovery that if we can just get out of the way. Yeah. We don’t actually have to actively

save it, we just have to stop punishing it.

We have to stop destroying it. That’s a great answer. And there are so many examples of that here in New York and throughout Europe and throughout the world. Of just that, that just get our nasty human impact out of the way and let the river, like you said, this is the mighty Brahmaputra, this is the mighty ganges

Like who are we to get in there and what folly and hubris to think that we could tell this river what to do that we know better than these natural systems. When what we really just need to stop doing is destroying it. That’s a great answer.

 So Sharif, your story is so interesting to me because you’re not just a riverkeeper. You also started this national geographical entity of Waterkeepers Bangladesh.

You’re also on the Waterkeeper Alliance board. How has being a member of Waterkeeper Alliance helped you in this work? What has it meant to you?

Sharif Jamil: [00:19:00] Well, Waterkeeper Alliance does not give you funding. So, many people in this is not only Bangladesh, maybe in the developing countries have an idea that Relationship with an international organizations will only can give you funds, and that’s the biggest strength. But that’s not true that I felt from Waterkeeper Alliance because this network itself is so strong . That is what I was trying to say during the last discussion I mean. We feel is family.

Like we are some people who work really not like normal, traditional activist or worker for development sector. We work to protect the water body, like with passion, and that’s why we are meant to be Waterkeeper. That is the essence of the membership. That’s why the Waterkeeper Alliance different than other NGOs who are working for the nature.

[00:20:00] We want to protect it or whether there is fund. There is no project, there is money, doesn’t matter. We’ll talk for the water body because we feel like when we talk, the water body talks. So it’s the responsibility that is not like you are serving for anything. You are doing it for the river and we’re dedicated for it.

So when I see the waterkeeper memberships, I feel like a big strength. And of course knowledge because similar problems are in many river systems. So many countries are dealing with in many ways. You get the knowledge about the technology. You get knowledge and support about solving the problem and how you encountering any problem in many ways.

Then it’s a big alliance, big family. That’s huge. Despite the network we have in different parts of the world it’s a knowledge bank, but [00:21:00] apart from them it’s a very big strength.

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. Yeah I’ve asked that question to maybe 50 or 60 waterkeepers in this capacity of, of, of either writing about waterkeepers or interviewing waterkeepers to the podcast.

 And it seems to me that the answer is usually some version of like other waterkeepers, it’s that it’s the network, it’s the other people that you get to the knowledge bank that you get to draw on, and whether that’s through the emails or through even the in-person summits and conferences.

And you’ve traveled a lot. I mean, i’ve met you in New York. I’ve met you in Milwaukee. I’ve met you in Washington DC and that’s just in this country. And I know that we have our Asian Regional Summit coming up and those were on hold briefly for COVID, but they’ve been back the last couple years.

And I know, I’m sure you’ve been to many of them. What is the feeling of being at like a summit or even the global conference? 

Sharif Jamil: Yeah. The two things, our global conferences are not like ordinary gathering. We are pegged with so many parallel discussions [00:22:00] on very important and very like contemporary topics.

We discuss about the things that are helpful for the movement we are doing on ground here. So it’s a huge engagement and knowledge and also networking with new people. There are many people coming from different parts of the, not discipline only, but from the different parts of world. So it’s very different and it’s not the traditional conference.

we have for other issues. It’s like a family members meeting each other. Our conferences starts at six o’clock in the morning, but it does not end at 6, 8, 10, 12 in the evening or midnight. Yeah. So at some extent it continues. So four days, we just be with each other and we gather knowledge, we gather strength, we know our strength and weakness struggles and so many things at personal level

also, many of our members [00:23:00] you can see, it, and the relationship between us are also different. People don’t know it. And it’s really the strength. And for the regional summits, 

It is also, we have trainings in different issues, so you can get to know how you can best utilize your existing resources and activities and actions to be implemented in a better way.

That’s a very important thing because there are chunks of sessions and panels guided by multiple topics that have been selected through a process where the organizers are involved. And then also there are places we go. So we go to nature. We also try to learn from the river systems and ecosystems and nature relationship with the society.

So it’s like very different. And we said knowledge and strength again.

Thomas Hynes: So what do you think we can, like, what is a water keeper expect from these conferences and what would [00:24:00] you like to see? What do you wanna see from these gatherings and getting back together with your fellow waterkeepers? 

Sharif Jamil: Yeah, it’s great.

I mean, like, for Asia Summit we also started a process like South Asia and East. We together marched our meetings for Asia Summit. So we came up with our memberships and we set together you submit, then we identify topics, what we want to discuss.

It was so helpful by the Waterkeeper Alliance to set all this up and also, like getting Visa for the memberships in different countries and also making sure that they’re traveling on time. Getting back to home. So it’s a lot of logistics and works. Those are going forward. And this can be one thing we can improve, which is like the, when we are preparing it we can engage the resources we have [00:25:00] regionally.

to discuss about the regional issues that we are dealing with, and that might be developed by the organizations taking time ahead, maybe for the next summit. We start discussing now about panel topic and probable speakers and prepare more this kind of things and also more of like organizing together, not like putting on burden on the friends in New York

only some of the organizers will take some of the responsibilities, things like this. 

Thomas Hynes: Well, and I think it, it underscores that like the strength of this movement and maybe the strength of these summits is really relying on the waterkeepers, right? I mean, it’s, that’s the real value.

 Well, Sharif I, again, for our listeners, Sharif just got back from Bangkok. He’s got a, he is got meetings all day and he is going to, germany tomorrow, his bags are packed. I don’t think they’ve been unpacked. So Sharif, we were very lucky to talk [00:26:00] to you today. It’s always good to see you. I hope to see you again soon.

 You gave me a great t-shirt The last time we met, it was it was too big for me, but when my wife was pregnant, she wore it pretty much every day showing Waterkeeepers Bangladesh

with our unborn daughter underneath it. So I meant thank you for that. I shoulda taken a photograph, but it’s great to see you again and safe travels.

And I hope to see you soon. 

Sharif Jamil: Thank you so much, Toms. Thank you everybody. Have a good one.