Equity In Every Drop: Series Five, Episode Two

Millicent Olal Muchilwa is more than an activist; she is the North Basin Lake Victoria Waterkeeper in Kenya, a civic educator, a human rights defender standing at the intersection of ecological and historical land injustices, and a mother. While Lake Victoria serves as a lifeblood for millions, it has become a battleground for untreated industrial effluent, illegal sand harvesting, and a lack of governmental transparency.

In this episode, Millicent discusses the “long haul” of environmental litigation and the danger of speaking truth to power in a region where dissent is often met with force. While her children provided the final spark that pulled her back into the front lines, it is Millicent’s decades of community organizing and legal due process that are turning local challenges into systemic opportunities for restoration.

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Thank you for listening, sharing, and supporting our mission to ensure everyone’s right to clean water. Together, we demand equity in every drop.

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Transcript – Series 5, Episode 2: Environmental Protection and Personal Safety

[00:00:00] Thomas Hynes: Our guest today is Millicent Olal Muchilwa of North Basin Lake Victoria Waterkeeper in Kenya. Lake Victoria is a critical resource that provides food and water for both domestic and industrial use, including transportation, recreation, and economic empowerment opportunities for the millions of people across the East African region it traverses. Millicent has dedicated herself to working with local communities over the years to address challenges and turn those same challenges into opportunities. She’s a civic educator, community organizer, and human rights defender who has been working to address historical land and ecological injustices that have negatively impacted the community.

Millicent , thank you so much for being here today. It’s so nice to see you. We’re all in different time zones and I appreciate you making the time to be here today. I know how busy you are. 

Millicent Olal Muchilwa: I’m glad to be here. Thank you. 

Thomas Hynes: We’re so glad to have you. want to talk today about the challenges that water keepers and advocates throughout the world face in [00:01:00] protecting ecosystems while also keeping themselves personally and physically safe.

But before we do that, I was hoping you could maybe tell our listeners a little bit about your work as North Basin Lake Victoria Waterkeeper. About the region, about the lake and how you came about to, to do this kind of work. 

Millicent Olal Muchilwa: So it all dates back to 2020 during the COVID season and school was out, so I.

I had teenagers and we had founded a school that would offer alternative education. A school where we were not focusing on just academic success, but we were looking at raising the children to be as holistic as possible and to be children who will solve problems within their communities. And I think one of the reasons why I went this way is because as a nation, we have been facing quite a number of challenges and my own children were [00:02:00] saying, we want to do our educations right up to all levels or I-G-C-S-E and then we hit out we’ll move to nations that are working. So I kept asking them, why would you run away from challenges? I mean, challenges are there to be solved. So during COVID, they requested not to do online schooling because that’s where everyone had to, and they asked for data to be able to explore the infinite.

So Michelle from a young age was very interested in science and I recall at times we’d be out putting out clothes after washing them, putting them on the clothes lines. And Michelle would be explaining to me the action on the sun, on the clothes. This is way back when she was about seven, eight years.

So now she is exploring the depths of the ocean. So she’s coming with a laptop into the kitchen to show me or rather to tell me, mom, there’s a whole [00:03:00] life under the ocean. There’s so much going on you need to know. So I’d be like, Michelle, I’m done with geography. You enjoy yourself. So after a couple of weeks she and Jeremy.

Asked again for data. Jeremy wanted to take apart all the gadgets in the house old computers, the television, and I told him no. So towards the end of May, I think it was, they came and said, we want to do Ocean Heroes Boot Camp. So I asked, what is Ocean Heroes Boot Camp? But before you even go into it, you’ve got to understand that, you know, boot camps are very demanding.

That’s why it’s called a boot camp. And they said it’s going virtual. Across the world so kindly allow us to do it. So I did. And I’d see them awake at odd hours. Three, you know, I’m hearing discussions. They’ve [00:04:00] rope in their younger sisters, 5:00 AM people are up at 6:00 AM They’re going to the shores of the day live right on the shores of the lake

And you know, they’re collecting plastic bottles and they’re taking photos. And I’m like, what are you guys up to? Oh, it’s the literary challenge. So whoever connects the most means. So for me, I was really grateful because during the period. There’s a lot of negative legacy news. So they was keeping them busy.

And after a week, again, Michelle comes up and she’s like, mom, we want to eradicate plastic pollution in Lake Victoria. And I asked her, and how exactly do you intend to do that? I’m not going back into active activism, so to speak. I have gotten into trouble so many times for speaking out and I was thinking, at this stage in my life, I want to slow down.

So I told them a very firm no, and they [00:05:00] kept persisting and I said, fine. What exactly do you want to do? How do you want to eradicate plastic? And they said, we can begin by. Recycling center within our community. So I realized these kids were not going to get off my back, so I said, fine. If it’s a recycling center, I need to take you to the Kenya Industrial Development and Research Institute because I do know they fabricate machines and we can pick it up from there.

And in my heart, I know it’s during COVID and there’ll be nobody at the office. So. We left the compound to go and walk around that same day. And as I’m walking out, I meet some three women. They live within the community and they’re coming out through the airport fence, and a short while later, the airport [00:06:00] vehicle comes and the men are threatening them and they’re saying, you are lucky.

Next time we are going to arrest you. And I asked them, why would you be arresting them? You’re the ones who have closed the road. In fact, you did it unilaterally. And secondly, you’ve not even bothered to provide an alternative route. I mean, do you expect this women to swim across the lake? There’s crocodiles, there’s, hippos, so they left and the women told me, you have to help us.

This road has been closed and really we don’t have another route and going round is going to be too expensive for us. Mm-hmm. . So I said, fine. We are going to hold a meeting. Find out, have you guys written letters before? And they say no. They normally come to the community and we talk, they promise they’re going to do an alternative road, but that’s just about it.

So I told them the way to work with [00:07:00] government agencies is due process. So we went with the kids to kirti. Unfortunately people were working right from the security. He was very friendly. We were welcomed inside against what I expected. So the kids got to meet with some young engineers as well probably mid twenties, and they had a conversation for over an hour.

I knew we’d be there 20 minutes and we’d be out. Mm-hmm. I was like, wow, these kids are onto something. They’ve done their research because they knew their staff. They even had precious plastics, which are online, and they were pretty clear on what they wanted to do. Wow.

So when we left they said, go and get us the data in terms of the kinds of plastics that are going into the lake and the volumes. And from there we can fabricate a machine. So we sat back looking for [00:08:00] data and I still wasn’t totally convinced, but I was interested at this point in time and we were told there’s no data on Lake Victoria.

There’s plenty of data on the oceans, but none on the inland waters. So when we ended up at the Kenya Marine and Fisheries Research Institute, they invited the kids to be part of the data collection, and they said, or trained them in basic research methodology. So that’s at the point we started doing cleanups.

And of course, at this time, as we are doing cleanups within the community. Then I’m getting to learn a lot more because being so busy and leaving every morning, getting back late in the evening, I was also sort of disconnected from what was going on in the community so community came together with the children, the cleanups.

We [00:09:00] sensitized community members. We had young kids joining us. I remember an 8-year-old at one time because after the cleanup we’d always have reflections. So the 8-year-old girl says. But for how long are we going to be collecting other people’s space? Why don’t we just talk to them to stop littering.

So that is how now we moved upstream. We started, talking to communities within the CBD market traders and communities who live along there’s a river that drains into the lake. It goes through the most populous area of the city. So you were able to move to that area, tell them the negative impacts of plastic pollution and slowly um, we ended in, because we brought the lake close to the people, and Michelle and Jeremy actually realized a lot [00:10:00] of the youngsters.

Actually had not even been to the lake yet. The lake is not far from the city center. It’s a radius of what, two kilometers max. So as young people started on, they set up what they call the NAM Youth Summit and annual Where young people come together, and it’s not just in Kenya, but they connect to young people in other countries and they’re able to discuss as young people what it is they want to see in their waterway.

So in a nutshell that’s how the project began and that’s how I was pulled back into activism,

Thomas Hynes: by your children, right? Sounds like your children. , I mean,, the things my children make me do are never good for the planet. I mean, it just means I have younger children though. I have a one and a 4-year-old, and when they get their way, it’s just like more television and more candy.

Your children are sound just as [00:11:00] persistent, but at least it’s for the, the cleanup of the world and the betterment of the world. , I’ve met a lot of Waterkeepers and I’ve heard a lot of Waterkeeper origin stories, and I’ve never heard anyone who’s been dragged into it by their children.

And I think that’s, I think that’s fantastic. So kudos to them , And my apologies to you , as a fellow parent,

I understand, but for the sake of the world, I think that’s fantastic. i’ve never heard children being, you know, people do it for their children, but never, like their children are literally pushing them to do the work. So that’s very interesting. , you had mentioned in your answer just a moment ago, that you had been in trouble for speaking out.

Now I don’t mean to be I wanna be very sensitive about this, but is it, is it possible to share some of that stories about how you’ve been in trouble for speaking out? Because I, I say that because, I have so much privilege here as a white man in America, I can, you know, stand on the street

and, say whatever’s on my mind. I want to contrast that with what you’ve experienced. And if you might share some examples of, of how you have felt [00:12:00] trepidatious or concerned about speaking out in the past. 

Millicent Olal Muchilwa: Before I even go there, I must share that Michelle, my daughter is a straight shooter. And yes, we had the issues with gadgets being forever on gadgets until COVID happened and they came across the Ocean Heroes boot camp.

So actually what Michelle and Jeremy told me is my generation is responsible for the problems that our nation has. And I ask them, why do you say that? ‘Cause they’re Gen Z. I’m Gen X. And they said your generation kept quiet as a lot was going wrong. And for instance, Michelle asked me, where were you when this lake was degrading so much?

I was a child. I could not speak out. Mom, you were here. What did you do? And I realized at that point, if [00:13:00] I don’t join them, it’s going to get very difficult in that household and across the board in the nation. Gen Z are accusing my generation of not speaking out. And that’s true. So in answering the question a lot of my generation don’t speak out.

So I was always that person who would speak out against an injustice. For instance, when I was in primary school there’s a teacher who asked us to go outside and sit amongst the trees and, read then the head teacher comes and. And he says , we are all going to be punished. And I said, but the class teacher told us to sit here.

Why do you want to punish us? And you know what? I got a slap across my face. Yeah. And going forward, even in our public transport, you know, you go in knowing it is this amount of money. Say for instance, in those days it was 20 shillings from the city center to where I lived. [00:14:00] And then. Halfway through the trip they say it’s 20 or 30 shieldings and I’d refuse to pay.

I’m a young girl. And I just say, no, we agreed on this. So what we agreed on is what we are going to pay or what I’m going to pay. So I see everybody else. paying the new fair. And here I am alone making a lot of noise and they’re like, young girl, you better keep quiet. And I’m like, you don’t understand.

The issue is not the money, but what we agreed on. If we agreed on something, then you’ve got to stick to it. And if you want to change it, at least help me understand why. And I’ll give another example. Where we is close to the. Kenya Pipeline Depot and we have these oil tankers That are constantly blocking the road.

And in addition to the oil tankers, we have a bottling company that is [00:15:00] polluting the lake. Yet when you speak out you are considered an enemy of development. When we raised our voices, because what I did is, number one, I sensitized the community members. I told them it is you who has chosen to keep quiet.

There are ways in which we can get this thing sorted out, our collective voice can get us an alternative route. And we went through the motions, we wrote letters and as we speak now they had to put an alternative route. So on this other side where the Kenya Pipeline Company is I think I’ve made so much noise.

So whenever I’m driving I was driving there and they had blocked the road again. So somebody was just shouting out, Hey, this mama is here, open the road up for her quickly, or they’ll be held to pay for guys. Whatcha waiting for? Make sure you don’t block this vehicle at all.

So I’m like, wow. So [00:16:00] they, they do realize, and I actually led protests of the fact that the community did not have roads Because the other one was blocked by a government agency, so the only way you could get across is either by canoe and there’s no life jackets. And then we had a crocodile that came

so, it, it attacked a couple of people within the community. We lost one and the other one lost their leg. We’ve had hippo attacks because again, there has been sand harvesting going on and unabated, they have sat cut away the habitat of the hips and the, so hippos will obviously come out to eat in farms .

And you see people are not able to relate this so. I as a woman in the African context, I’m not supposed to be heard. Hmm. I am only supposed to be [00:17:00] seen. But even when I go for meetings and you know, there’s the elderly men there, there are times I say I will sit and I will keep quiet. I will not talk, but I tell you it in my bones and I find that I have to let it out.

So. This is how we were able to join Waterkeeper Alliance because some of the battles that we have made international solidarity , for instance, with a bottling company we know where. They pass, their effluent, which is untreated. Mm-hmm. Into the lake. And lemme tell you one thing, community members are the most observant people I have come across in my life.

I was educated in Nairobi. I came thinking I had a lot to teach them, but I realized that I’m the one who has a lot to learn [00:18:00] from community members. Why? Because number one, they’re at one with nature . They understand how to live within nature. They understand the signs of the times. When they tell you it’s going to rain, you better believe it.

They’re more accurate than the weatherman, I must say that. So I picked up quite a bit of information, and right now what we are pushing for is a return to indigenous education in taking care of the lake. For instance, they drew to my attention that the bottling company was discharging its affluent, along its storm drain channels.

I would smell when walking along it, but I didn’t quite know and they drew it to my attention. So when we complained, they switched and they thought community members wouldn’t know. So again, I’ll share a story. I love sharing stories [00:19:00] by the way. 

Thomas Hynes: This is 

Millicent Olal Muchilwa: the place to do it. We had a meeting at the county commissioner’s office.

Most of the manufacturer. Were invited for the meeting. Especially those we suspect of polluting, not suspect. Because there are those that discharge into rivers. And then there’s this one that discharges directly into the lake. So they thought they were scot-free and you know, they came in their suits and they said, you know, these people just love making noise.

And they were looking straight at me and they’re like, we are really tired of the noise. In fact, we want evidence. Can you give evidence that we’re polluting , so we had gone with, two fishermen and the director of the Kenya Marine and Fisheries Research Institute introduced himself by title and told us, you know, the test is [00:20:00] done according to international standards, and I can very comfortably without fear of contradiction, tell you all

that it is you community members who are producing. Yeah. You are responsible. Yeah. And we don’t refuse the company’s may, but you are the major polluters. 

Thomas Hynes: we hear that a lot.

Yeah. That’s something the plastic

organization try. Do say make sure you take care of your, make sure you recycle Yeah. 

Millicent Olal Muchilwa: And their eyes were on me. So I said let me keep quiet. And the fisherman brought up to speak and they said, it is late. Let him be the last one. And he said, you know what? I’ve listened to all of you and I’ve heard some of you have titles. There are professors here, which is very good. But what I want to tell you is my grandfather was a fisherman.

My father. was a fisherman. I’m a fisherman. I know my [00:21:00] way around that lake, like the back of my hand. Mm. Secondly this company here is saying that they are not polluting, but let me tell you, because there was an outcry, they switched times. So now they discharge effluent at midnight. At 3:00 AM and he went on to describe the pipes through which the effluent is discharged

He told them You have three pipes. That you have put underground, but we see it because our work is at night. Yeah. When everyone is sleeping. I am out working and I see that effluent coming into the lake and the evening before they discharge the effluent, there is that choking smell and it pervades the community.

And the next morning we have to wake up to fish gills why are fish gills predominant [00:22:00] since this company came to the locality. And then he finalized by saying, I will tell you one thing. When the hippo comes out of the water to tell you that the crocodile is sick, you have no reason to doubt him. Mm-hmm.

Because they both live in the water and there was pin drop silence, after which the county commissioner said, we have to investigate. So we requested that community members be part of the a c. but we haven’t had anything from them since. And the company, it’s back to its ways of discharging directly into the water.

So this one is going to be a long haul because we need to have independent tests conducted 

Thomas Hynes: That’s a great story and I, I, in the beginning I remember you said that your children are blaming your generation, which is also my generation. And then, but [00:23:00] it’s funny is that I blame my parents.

So maybe that’s just, that’s the thing that’ll go on forever. let’s talk a little bit about when we decided to speak a couple, like a week or so ago. There was a story that you had shared with one of our colleagues about I think it was a, a gold mine in Asiah County.

Am I pronouncing that correct? 

Millicent Olal Muchilwa: Yes. Siayya County. 

Thomas Hynes: This is a story where the people were protesting and then there was violence occurred. And two people lost their life do you feel this kind of thing is an isolated incident or is it common and , does that concern, informed the way that you speak out, the way that you warn your children to speak out. I mean, how does that color, that experience or that, that, that feeling? 

 

Millicent Olal Muchilwa: Our eyes were on those particular protests because for us, development always means that people get oppressed. People get thrown out of their [00:24:00] homes sometimes without even being compensated.

So the reason we were looking very closely at that particular one in Siaya, because we have the way our homesteads are the traditional hosted, so this guys come and it’s like, yeah, we’ve discovered gold. So they won’t be to vacate almost immediately. There’s no talk of compensation. It’s just like move will figure it out later and that later doesn’t come.

Mm-hmm. So when the people went up in arms there’s some comrades of our who are based there. We kept in touch just trying to see how it would pan out and why there are plants to put up a nuclear plant on the shores of the lake. The same Siaya Yeah. And all we know is they have plans. The nitty gritties, we don’t know yet.

Our constitution is very clear on [00:25:00] how this should be carried out, and the voice of the people is paramount, so you have to seek the collective consent of the people. This did not happen in Siaya. And in Ramullah at the gold mines. Yet they’re doing this exact same thing with the nuclear plant. As I’m talking to you, we do not know the exact site.

We went down to the communities to speak with them and I can tell you they’re apprehensive. ‘ when you’re told that government may purchase your land. It stops everything you want to do. If you wanted to put up structures, you cannot. At the same time you don’t know if it’ll be you or your neighbors.

And as they’re doing their research, they’re saying nuclear plants require huge tracks of land, so is an entire area going to be moved out? How is this going to be done? We [00:26:00] don’t have the National Land Commission on site yet. The site has not been disclosed to the community yet. Yet. Even as they’re doing their tests, the community is supposed to be in the know and the same

Siaya Governor. At least spoke out against the company that wants to do the gold mining is saying how he’s looking forward to this nuclear plant.

Yet the people have not been consulted. So you see, he is speaking from both sides of his mouth. Mm-hmm. And that’s our key apprehension because they’re trying to force it down people’s throats. But I guess once you are an activist, you can’t help but speak out. So normally we take our security very important.

So basically what we do is we sensitize communities, [00:27:00] get them to understand what is coming, and get them to understand their rights. 

So then we write letters, we help them do petitions to the county government and to the national government . If there’s no response, there’s a way that is laid out in the law that you need to follow a path.

Yeah. So we guide them on the referral pathways you have written to the county governor. He has not responded. Then we will move to the ombudsman. This is a commission on administrative justice. So they will instruct the government to respond. So what we are doing is building up a case. So if we get to the point that the county does not totally respond one of the ways is to go through a judicial process, take them to court.

But another way is to let the community collectively come out to state that [00:28:00] they’re not happy with the way things are going. So this is the way of our demonstration picketing. But unfortunately, what we have had, especially in the last three years in our country, as we’ve gone back to our dark old days.

 Even during peaceful protests, the police tend to respond with firepower. Because I think leaders are just looking at what they can get out of this process. 

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. 

Millicent Olal Muchilwa: But before we ourselves go out to demonstrate, then we make sure that they’re in touch with Defender’s Coalition and they have a team of lawyers so that in case of arrests, then they will immediately come and bail u s out.

Then we do try as much as possible. Not to get the policemen to get angry enough, you know, to start heating [00:29:00] back. But when you have a mass protest, unfortunately communities have a lot against policemen. So you find they insult them. And when they sometimes feel threatened, then they’ll resort to fire power.

But if you look at the Gen Z revolution that happened, it was a real threat to the government of the day. So they really tried to get the young people off the streets by killing a number of them . It is very unfortunate. the best we can do is just see how our demonstrations are not infiltrated. 

Because what, government does, unfortunately is infiltrate within the demonstrators so that there’s a reason to use firepower. So we try as much as [00:30:00] possible within our ranks to know we are as we’re going on demos and to deal with goods from the outset. So that we have successful demos, but that normally is a very last resort.

Yeah. And for instance, like when you were demonstrating along the pipeline, we were pleasantly surprised to lamb that they cannot fire tear gas outlets because of the storage of petroleum so that gave us a free rein. But in these other areas, then again, we have a team that goes up ahead, you know, you have to do your research so that when we need to move out, they’re able to move out very quickly .

Thomas Hynes: And so I have, I guess that’s, I have just one final question. Would you sort of begun to answer a little bit? , And I think it’s the, the, you know. We’ve touched on this a lot, but how do you balance the need to protect ecosystems, to fight unjust projects, to [00:31:00] fight pipelines and nuclear power plants , and other dangerous things with the need to protect yourself?

And I, and I say that for yourself and as, and, and your, as a mother and I can really sympathize with what you’re talking about as a parent because I, I also, you know, my children aren’t old enough to yell at me about not saving the world, but they will someday if they’re anything like me.

 And so I want to know like, how, how can I be active enough while also keeping them safe and keeping myself safe. And how do you find that balance?

Millicent Olal Muchilwa: It is a difficult question to answer.

If we choose to keep silent, the damage is only gonna get worse . Because right now there is a lot of work that needs to be done in restoration.

Like I said protests gets to be the last resort, but what we do is we do not keep quiet. We make noise in forums and we [00:32:00] like going where the leadership is and challenging them. And one other thing we’ve realized is, you know, they don’t get as much sensitization as they need to . We assume that our leaders know.

So what do we do? We start with, like for instance, we are going into elections next year, so we start with the prospective candidates and we make sure. Are you aware that this is going on? What are your plans? To reverse this, and this is especially along the lecture, like the whole issue of sand harvesting has caused so much problems that now we are talking to the candidates and we are sensitizing them as well.

And Michelle and Jeremy were actually able to sensitize the county governor. And I was pleasantly surprised because I always thought to kick Michelle’s legs under the table. And she [00:33:00] just goes like, you know what, what were you guys thinking? you have totally messed up.

You know, this needs to be done. But massively, he’s a big supporter of this and he listens. And he understands that this is just how these kids communicate. Yeah. So at least in that aspect, we have found allies even within the leadership and even at the national level, there are those who listen.

And for those who don’t the way we have been working we have allies like say in the Coast Guard, and I remember recently I was telling them that you are the ones mandated to deal with the sand harvesting. And you know what he told me? Mm-hmm. Told me, Madam, I’m a young man. I have children and I’m sorry to tell you.

I have received threats, so I’ll have to lay low for a while. [00:34:00] And do you know the former NEMA County director? Do you know why he moved to another county? I said I don’t, and he told me he was pursued to his gate and a gun was pointed at his head. 

Thomas Hynes: Oh my 

Millicent Olal Muchilwa: God. So they had to move him. So we are scared.

So then we realized that what we have to do is look at a just transition for those young men who are harvesting sand so that the stop hunch will not have someone who is willing to do it. 

Thomas Hynes: Yeah, 

Millicent Olal Muchilwa: yeah. Because they’re the ones that keep those kids in the water. And these kids face a lot of teachers. Like yesterday I was at a forum discussing Bill Hasia.

And our area has a lot of cases, so how can we sensitize this young people so that they also pull out of that work that does not even pay a lot. Yeah. Because they get very [00:35:00] little money out of it. And then what do they do? They drink and they’re into drugs. 

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. 

Millicent Olal Muchilwa: So how do you, get this demographic out of that.

I call it a cage . Cage. Yeah. Because of course they’re guys who are using them. Yeah. And supplying them drugs so that if you are against it, they’ll easily attack you. Yeah. So, those are the ways we are looking at how we can work on it,

and I’m glad that the kids now want to come back to their country and they want to come back to sort those challenges. And the downside is you are marked. So right now, if there’s anything going on in my area, like uh, there’s any talk of protests, I begin getting text messages from the top leadership that what’s going on.

I sense it as the community. So you find out who their leaders are. It’s, [00:36:00] it’s difficult and what I like is that we have trained a lot of young people and they pull no punches. I have. Lot of scouts that we have trained. I have a lot of school kids that we have trained and they’re speaking out and those kids are amazing on social media and they know exactly where to hit.

And I’ll give you an example. The first protest that we did the shareholder one of the Larger shareholders of that company. He’s American. He sold his shares.

Yeah. Because he was tagged.

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. Yeah. 

Millicent Olal Muchilwa: Good. They taught him. Yeah. Yeah. Good. So we, we look at the kinds of strengths that we can use, and the kids are good on social media, and I tell you, our government doesn’t know what to do with them. 

Thomas Hynes: Well, 

Millicent Olal Muchilwa: yeah, social [00:37:00] media protests are very effective, also very, very effective.

Thomas Hynes: Well, and it’s very encouraging to hear the children being so, I know that it’s, as a parent, you must be like, please be safe and everything like that. But it is it sounds very encouraging. It sounds very effective and we were joking earlier. It’s like the kids blame our generation, but I, I’m blaming the other generation and I know that my parents blame their generation, so.

Millicent Olal Muchilwa: It’s a cycle. 

Thomas Hynes: Hopefully, hopefully getting better. But obviously, you know, you, you have done a great job in your own work and your own done a remarkable job as a mother and as a parent. And we were so lucky to have you here today. And thank you for being here. Thank you for the work that you do, and thank you for leading the next generation who may be a pain sometimes, but are, are on the right path and doing such great work.

And it was just so wonderful to speak with you today. 

Millicent Olal Muchilwa: Thank you so much. They put me through what they refer to as character development. [00:38:00] So for them, their mantra is if you can’t beat them. If they can’t join you or if they can’t join, you beat them. So they’re beating us into submission. Yeah.

But I love it that they have information at their fingertips and they’re standing up to be counted. So. We are looking forward to changes. 

Thomas Hynes: Yeah. Well , congratulations on some great kids Millicent, and congratulations on all the great work that you’re doing. Thank you. On behalf of all of our listeners, thank you for being here today.

Thank you for the work that you’re doing, and I hope to see you again soon. 

Millicent Olal Muchilwa: Thank you so much, and thanks for your time.