Equity In Every Drop: Series Five, Episode Three

In this episode of Equity in Every Drop, host Thomas Hynes welcomes Tonya Bonitatibus, Executive Director and Riverkeeper for Savannah Riverkeeper, who shares her dynamic journey watching over the health and vibrancy of a massive 400-mile river system spanning Georgia and South Carolina. Tonya details her unlikely entry into conservation 20 years ago, translating her background in business marketing and biology labs into making complex environmental threats understandable and actionable for everyday citizens. She also discusses the critical necessity of working across political aisles, especially in deeply conservative rural areas. She stresses the importance of building trust, whether that means meeting landowners at the back of a truck or collaborating with the timber industry to keep forests standing. She breaks down the strategic “marketing problem” facing the environmental movement today, calling for a radical shift away from abstract “tree hugging” and back to tangible conversations centered squarely on public health and safe drinking water. 

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Transcript – Series 5, Episode 3: Clean Water Is Bipartisan 

Thomas Hynes : Our guest today is Tonya Bonitatibus of Savannah Riverkeeper. Tonya serves as the river keeper and executive director for Savannah Riverkeeper, watching over the health and vibrancy of the Savannah River in South Carolina and Georgia. Tonya recently received the JAG Young Leader Alumni Award from Georgia Regents University, where she also received a BA in business marketing.

She often voices the need for water advocates to understand and maneuver in the financial realm to enact significant changes in their watersheds. Tonya, it’s so good to see you again. Thank you for being here. And,, yeah, it’s– we’re so lucky to have you.

Tonya Bonitatibus: Thank you very much for having me. 

Thomas Hynes : I wanna dive into our issue today, which is gonna talk about how to, you know, fundraise for the environment, in a nonpartisan way, even though it can be such a partisan issue, unfortunately.

But I, at the top, I do wanna hear more about just how you came to be in this role and a little bit more about the Savannah River. And we’ll just also say to anybody listening out there who for some reason hasn’t been to Savannah, I was saying to Tonya before we [00:01:00] started recording, I went there two years ago, it is a spectacular, charming, beautiful, just, totally enchanting place, and so glad that I know the, the woman defending and protecting it.

And, um, yeah, so I’ll, I’ll let you take it away. 

Tonya Bonitatibus: Sure. Thank you. So I am the Savannah Riverkeeper, so I work on a river system that’s 400 miles long. We have a 10,000 square mile watershed. It is the state border between South Carolina and Georgia, the entirety of the two states, and then we have a little bit of North Carolina at the top.

It’s a very big river system that has everything from the largest lake east of the Mississippi River and the third largest port in the United States. So it is a massive river that is used by many, many different communities, not only for their drinking water, but for their economic viability. How I came to Riverkeeper, so I fell into it 100%.

So, [00:02:00] 2006, I was about to have my second child  and I was a stay-at-home mom and was working at Augusta University and finishing up my degree and working in the lab, and I knew that that was not what I wanted to do with two kids at home. And so there was a guy at my church that was the original Riverkeeper, his name was Dr.

Frank Karl, and  I have a marketing degree, I worked in a biology lab, and I just walked up to him and said, “Hey, I need a job. I hear you have this cool thing called Riverkeeper. I don’t really know what it is, but you should hire me.” He laughed, he hired me, and the very first thing we worked on was a facility called Olin Chemical in South Augusta.

It was a place that was using mercury in its process to create chlorine, a process that was made illegal in Japan in 1956, yet was still just continuing to emit high amounts of mercury right here in Augusta, Georgia. And as a young mom, that really kinda resonated with me, and I have [00:03:00] been hooked since.

So that was 20 years ago and it’s, you know… I, I’ve never looked back. I’ve been obsessed with this work since day one. 

Thomas Hynes : I saw that you had a marketing degree, but this is like a perfect recipe for, uh, a riverkeeper. You have a science background and also a communications background?

Tonya Bonitatibus: I do yeah… So  the longer version, so I rode horses when I was in high school, I went to college to ride horses. Was actually in an accident, uh, got kicked in the head- Oh, my gosh … um, and ended up rotating living in Asia a little bit. Just, you know, life at 19 gets weird. Um- … and I went back and forth between Taiwan and Augusta University for many years.

I would come back, do a semester. I wanted to be a veterinarian, so I would go to the biology department, and then I would come back and be in the business department. So I kinda went back and forth and ended up with a marketing degree. – I’m very lucky, because I do have a pretty good grasp of [00:04:00] science.

I’ve learned a lot more since I’ve been here. , But I think my skill really has always been translation, right? Mm. So, it may surprise all of your listeners to learn that scientists are a little bit nerdy- … and love to talk in, in ways that others can’t understand. And so that’s something that we’ve really tried to do here at Riverkeeper and throughout my entire career, is to try and make sure that these really complicated things that affect every single person are put in a way that people can actually understand and do something about it.

Thomas Hynes : I don’t know that about scientists, that they’re nerdy. Um, I’m gonna have to fact-check that. Uh- Yeah … but I’ll have to ask a scientist, so might be biased. But, this is a great segue. And I also just like so interest- you know, like I was already like, uh, science and marketing, and you’re like, “But also horses.”

And, and Taiwan, what an interesting background. But I think this is an interesting segue because you, you mentioned translation, and you mentioned that this is, issue that impacts everyone, which I wholeheartedly agree with. [00:05:00] And, I do think a part of what we do is translation, if not from one language to another, you know, within the language to say, ” here’s what this issue is, and here’s why you need to do it.”

So what we’re talking about here today is, like how do you communicate, – this issue that, again, affects everybody no matter how you vote, no matter what you believe in. Everybody’s drinking water. You know, everybody’s food is grown in the ground. How do you approach that, in, in your community?

I mean, it’s two states, three states, but it’s basically like one watershed. , how do you communicate that? And do you run into any trouble as this has become, by outside forces, sort of a partisan issue even though it is completely, at its core, a non-partisan issue?

Tonya Bonitatibus: well, so for us in Georgia and South Carolina, number one, the reality is that the government is controlled largely by Republicans. It has been for a long time. so conservative issues have to be incorporated into any water issue. Mm-hmm. Uh, the good [00:06:00] news is that my conservatives are the ones that are spending money hunting.

They’re eating out of the woods. They know it better than anybody else- Mm-hmm … just to be honest. Um, they fish. They knew species of fish existed in the river 30 years before science even got around to it, right?

Right. So, it’s about connecting. So- As a riverkeeper, one of my favorite things to do, and one of the most important things I think that we ever do, is sit with somebody at the back of their truck and drink beer out of their cooler.

And that sounds so weird, but it’s, it’s reality. I had somebody, a good friend, tell me years ago, “The thing that makes riverkeepers unique is that we actually truly work in rural communities.” We have to, right? Mm-hmm. So we’re working on an entire river system. I do have a couple of big cities. I have Augusta, I have Savannah, North Augusta, Greenville drinks out of the river, but the vast majority of the people that I deal with are very rural communities.

But those folks [00:07:00] have many been on their land for generations. It is, uh, just as much the land they stand on as it is the blood that runs through their veins. And so it’s really about just making sure that people understand what the issue is, and how it doesn’t really matter what your background is or their background is.

You just gotta focus on what you’re working on, right? Mm-hmm. So,  and that’s… And you know, and the other thing, I’ll be perfectly honest with you, in the urban corners of my community, we have some of the hardest problems, uh, because there’s such a disconnect. Mm. Right? So, uh, uh, many of the communities that we’re trying to do things like lead remediation or trying to reduce air or, or water pollution in these communities, especially if they happen to be low income, there is already this struggle of are the lights gonna stay on?

You know, am I gonna be home to make sure that my kids have [00:08:00] somebody there for them? So the environment seems like a really kind of a down road thing. Yeah. Um, and so connecting and making them understand and, and figuring out ways to connect and say, “Hey, this is your drinking water. Like, this really affects your health,” is super important.

But again, it’s about focusing on the things that we have in common, not all the other stuff, right? I don’t care if you have a Trump flag in your yard or if you think , you know, Keisha Bottoms – should be the next president. Doesn’t matter to me. Right. Do you need water? And if so, we should be working together.

The other thing that I learned years ago is that we talk a lot about the environment in a very static way. People like to talk about river or water, the environment, birds, trees. That’s, I don’t think the way you connect with people. You have to add a I-N-G to the end, and it changes everything, right?

So you go, “Hey, what about fishing?” If I say fishing, it makes you [00:09:00] think, “Hey, I’ve spent some time on this river with my grandfather. We pulled a fish 15 years ago.” Like, it automatically starts connecting you. And so that’s another just, like, that’s just a s- little secret trick, is just adding I-N-G and making it so that people can see themselves in that environment, understand why it’s important to them, is just critical across the board.

Thomas Hynes : That’s a great answer, and that’s, – I mean, I hope people are taking notes. That was a great, but it’s a great trick. Because it, it, and, and it’s, it’s your communication background, clearly. Because you’re putting people… Y- yeah. What, how did you put it? You said it’s not static.

It’s something that you take part in. It’s an active environment. It’s an active thing. It’s an active verb tense. That’s so great, and it’s so funny. You were like, “Well, whoever you voted for, whatever your bumper sticker is, do you need water?”

And I wanted to jump in and be like, “The answer is yes.” You 

Tonya Bonitatibus: know? Yes, you do.

Thomas Hynes : By the way, the answer is yes, you do need water. 

Tonya Bonitatibus: Yeah. 

Thomas Hynes : You know, I’m calling from New York City, where we have rivers, and we have wildlife and all that. But that challenge of [00:10:00] connecting  this dense urban core and the dense urban core of Savannah and Augusta and all over the country to saying, you know, “You are in an environment.

You are in an urban environment, but , there are impacts for you, and it may seem so far away,” but, like, I was down in Savannah. I saw that river. It’s right there, you know? And like- Yep … when it rains and everything else, it’s like you are part of this environment, no matter the density or the, the politics of your area.

But I’ve talked to a lot of riverkeepers and waterkeepers in more, I guess we’ll just say the red states. Um, even though Georgia’s kinda purple. Like- That they do this, this messaging. It’s like actually .. i forget w- how it was put to me, but it’s like the, the, the rod and gun angle.

Tonya Bonitatibus: Rod and bullet

Thomas Hynes : It’s like you wanna hunt, a rod and bullet. Yeah. And, um, it also just reminds me, like, I think even in  like Kruger National Park in South Africa, like these incredible wildlife reserves are funded by hunters. You know, like- That’s right … it’s not just all, like, people taking pictures. It’s like [00:11:00] the hunting and the fishing , and that active recreating, like, can really support these areas and really can support the efforts of what you’re doing.

Are there other ways that you have found that have been surprising that you’ve been able to connect in ways with people to, to sort of… Because we’re all operating in this divided environment. Have there been any other, like, tricks or, or tips that have worked for you besides , the active verb, uh, I-N-G?

Tonya Bonitatibus: yeah. So I have a pretty long, successful history of working with conservatives. We’ve passed a number of different pieces of legislation. In fact, I think one of the ones I’m most proud of is that we passed a piece of regulation in Georgia two years ago that actually tightened down agriculture rules, almost unanimously- Hmm

out of every committee all the way across the board. There was one person who voted no, but he votes no on everything- … so he doesn’t count. Um, and it’s really, uh, I actually asked , a fellow staff member about this yesterday, and she had a really interesting kind of [00:12:00] response, uh, which was that when you’re dealing with the conservatives or folks that, that tend to lean towards the right, they wanna deal a lot in facts, not as much in, in emotions.

And I’ve been thinking about that, and I think, and somewhat she’s right. , Because, the same with business. I think if you’re dealing with, and, and we do as Keepers all the time, businesses like to understand the playing field. What they don’t like is when it changes. Mm-hmm. So it’s not necessarily that every single business doesn’t want tight regulations.

It’s that they wanna be held to the same standard as their neighbor, and they wanna be able to account for it. And I feel like the Republicans are, you know… And, and it’s not Republicans, it’s Libertarians, it’s, you know- Sure … I don’t even, there sh- we shouldn’t have two parties to begin with. But, folks that tend to view themselves more conservatively, they want the logic of why it’s important. That doesn’t mean that they’re not passionately attached to their land.

Yeah. Like I said, these are, [00:13:00] you know, I’ve- we’re fighting a pipeline right now, and I’ve got folks that have Kings grants, which means that they have had this land in their family since before we were- Oh … a United States. Wow. Um, and that comes with a level of that land is the same as your kin. You know?

Like, there’s, there’s that deep connection. Another big industry that I’m working with, really kind of for the first time, and I’m enjoying the heck out of it, is the timber industry. , Because we have… This pipeline is going through the heart of South Carolina timber, and timber is not in a great way in Georgia and South Carolina.

We’ve lost a lot of our mills. Um, I don’t like paper mills. They’re highly polluting. I do love trees. Mm-hmm. The reality is that if landowners don’t get paid to grow trees, we will not have trees, right? So you can attack the timber industry as much as you want, and there definitely are issues with it.

Mm-hmm. But at the same time, do you wanna have forests that are maintained by private landowners? If the [00:14:00] answer is yes to that, you better figure out how to work with the timber industry. 

Thomas Hynes : That’s such a refreshing point of view, and, uh, uh, because you’re right. There are problems with the industry.

There are problems with mills, but, like, what’s your end goal? And, like, what are you willing to… You know, what are you willing to work with and, and, and can you find a way in to make it work the right way? I just think that’s, like, I, I don’t know. I just don’t think extremism really gets us anywhere. Yeah.

Even though we feel really passionate about it, and some things do feel really black and white to us, it’s like, okay, but what do you want? Like how do you wanna do this? Yeah. So, I mean, I, I’m, I’m listening to you, and, and I’m, I’m feeling like, wow, this this woman really knows what she’s doing, and you’re really, like, navigating this, this environment so well, and you have many successes.

Have there been any challenges or things that you’re like, ah, this is so frustrating,. ’cause I guess where I’m coming back to, it’s like, and I said this at the top, like, this is not a partisan issue. It’s become one- Mm-hmm … and we can talk later about, like, why we think that happened or whatever, but, [00:15:00] like, it is, right?

And it’s, it… To me, it’s, like, so galling and, like, insane ’cause it’s like you, like you said, like, you do need water. We all need water. We all need a place to grow our food. And, have there been challenges that you’ve run up where you’re like, “Man, this is, this is dumb?” Or like, for lack of a better term. Yeah,

Tonya Bonitatibus: I would say that my most frustrating actually is a lock and dam system in Augusta. We only have, so out of a 400-mile-long river, I used to have 200 miles of rocks or rapids. I have seven miles left. That’s it. Mm. Everything else is underneath lakes. And there is one dam that prevents the sturgeon or the anadromous fish from being able to get to these remaining rocks.

With the last harbor deepening, it was a required mitigation was to put this fish passage in. but everybody loves the water on the other side of the dam, and, uh, this has been an issue I’ve dealt with for I guess my entire career, the 20 [00:16:00] years. it’s resulted in a number of death threats, so those are fun.

Thomas Hynes : Jesus. Um, but it has been- I’m sorry for that

Tonya Bonitatibus: … 

just people get real rabid about dams. but the most frustrating thing about all of it has been the fact that I have elected officials who, Fun fact, elected officials do not have to pass an IQ test to be elected officials. I know that’s true.

That’s not a requirement, right? a cognitive test. Not a requirement. Yeah. None of it. Um, but the reality is that they are being asked to make very complex decisions about a vast majority of issues, and they most often go with the, honestly, the guy buttoned up wearing the nice suit that sounds like he’s saying exactly what makes the most sense.

Yeah. And in this scenario what that is is the people that are, most going to benefit from leaving things exactly the way that they are and have used that to really kind of spread a lot of anger and hate that is, is really [00:17:00] not only cost the taxpayer a huge amount, we’re still sitting with a broken dam.

and it’s just, it’s very frustrating because we can’t move forward, uh, with something that’s meaningful. And honestly, you know,  my congressman’s trying to break the Endangered Species Act. Mm. So, um, that one is very, very frustrating. , But all of them are. I mean, it’s… I tell people when…

Uh, we get a lot of calls, uh, you know, we have a lot of citizen complaints, and when we take on an issue, I have to tell people, “Look, we’ll, we’ll deal with this in about seven years,” um- Mm … just to set the framing, and that’s actually pretty correct. I mean, when you take on an issue, especially if it’s an issue that is legal but wrong, right, and, and that means you’ve gotta change the law- Mm-hmm

you’ve gotta do a lot. And if, if there’s a lawsuit, again, lawsuits take forever. but I do think, and just, just to get back to this, like, what is it, the secret sauce to being able to work with communities, you have to like [00:18:00] people. Yeah. And that is a really important thing. Like, you can love the river to death, you can love the fish and the birds to death, but if you don’t actually like people- This job is gonna eat you up.

Yeah. Because that’s the thing that we’re dealing with the most is usually, especially from a citizen complaint, these people have called the government, they’ve called everybody else to help them. Nobody will help them. Um, so they’re at their worst and need us, but may not trust us at all. Like, why are we calling this non-profit with a weird name?

So that trust has to begin at the very beginning, but again, that’s where the beer at the back of the truck fits in, right? Yeah. It’s taking the time to actually hear them, connect, and understand how you can engage and, and move forward. 

Thomas Hynes : Well, and you know, people throw this phrase around a lot, but you’re literally, like, meeting people where they are, right?

Yep. And i- in the back of the truck, you know? Like, and what you’re saying about [00:19:00] people, you know, you’re … It’s funny, and I, I wanna, like, touch back on, like, 10 things that you said. First of all, I’m really sorry about any death threats that you’ve received. That’s totally inappropriate and terrible, and I’m sorry about that.

And we’ve talked to a lot of riverkeepers and waterkeepers who have gone through that, and it’s just so mind-boggling. And we’ve talked a lot about burnout, and, like, how do you keep sustaining yourself through this? And it can’t just be about the river, right? And, in my role the last couple years, I’m, like, dissecting the DNA of a riverkeeper or a waterkeeper, and we’ve talked about it.

It’s like you gotta have science, you gotta have communication, you gotta ha- you know, um, a, a backbone or other anatomical terms. But, like, the empathy and, and caring about people, you know, we’re caring about the river and we’re caring about the trees because we care about the people,

that’s right. It’s like, it’s, it’s for the health and the wellbeing of people. It’s for the economic health. It’s for their emotional health. It’s for their physical health or anything like that.

So I think that’s really important to remember in this movement and without, right? Like, in the broader, in the [00:20:00] lowercase M movement as I call it, like, y- you have to keep the focus on people, because it’s just, like, otherwise, you’ll, you’ll go mad.

So Tonya, maybe this is a silly question, but you know, I, I think about this issue and we’ve said it sort of ad nauseam here, like it shouldn’t be partisan, but it is. Like you know, we can wish it away, but like the truth of the matter is that it’s like in a lot of circles, a very politically charged issue.

And looking historically like with warts and all, like Richard Nixon as a Republican president, like the EPA came on in his term, Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act, I think the Endangered Species Act too, but a lot of environmental regulations were seen as this like unifying issue. why do you think that’s changed?

Tonya Bonitatibus: I think all of those acts that you mentioned were specifically tied to human health when they were passed, right? Mm-hmm. So it was because people were dying of cancer, they couldn’t breathe. Yeah. It was because the water was so disgusting, it was causing issues.

where I think there was a deviation, I think that Reagan did a fantastic job and his [00:21:00] team like splitting the environment from humans. Mm. And for some reason the marketing has never changed, right? So the reality is that oftentimes, issues that they’re just like they’re, they’re not partisan they can’t be partisan, End up being tagged as such.

The Democratic Party and, and the left have become a catch-all in many ways too. They’re everybody that isn’t a conservative. , And I think that has led to kind of this bigger house of trying to fit everybody in. , But- Mm-hmm … in South Carolina, our governor has conserved many hundreds of thousands of acres of land, and is stating as he leaves he wants to do even more.

And- Hmm … in South Carolina and Georgia, most, in, probably throughout the world, but, uh, you know, throughout the United States, but largely when people say Democrats,, in the South, a lot of those tend to be Black. conservatives tend [00:22:00] to be white, at least in the state house, right?

Mm-hmm. , But the reality is that the Democrats in both of those state houses oftentimes, uh, do not have as much background or understanding even of those natural resource issues. So we don’t live in a place here where it’s an automatic just check mark, the Democrats are gonna be with us.  It’s actually- Mm-hmm

a lot of education on, on both sides. But I do think- Yeah … that the environment has a marketing problem, it’s got a communications problem. We spend a lot of time trying to hug trees, and that’s not what we should be talking about. Yeah. We should be talking about human health. 

Thomas Hynes : That’s, that’s so fascinating to me, and

we’re talking about, like, presidential history now. I really have to try not to veer this conversation off topic- … because I love, I just love these big sweeping eras, and I want… I’m like, let’s talk about Nixon and Reagan. I’m, like, fascinated with Richard Nixon, and my, and my wife is like, “Please stop putting pictures of him.”

Not in, like, in, like, a, in like, [00:23:00] a ridiculing kind of way. Anyway, that’s not the point. What, tell me what you think diverged or what… how did you put it? That Reagan separated the environment from people, and that- Mm-hmm … the environment does need, it does need a communications makeover. – Tell me more.

Tell me more. 

Tonya Bonitatibus: Yeah. I mean, it definitely does, right? So, just to go back, I was, you know, I was just talking about the Black community. , we’ll use Augusta for example. there is absolutely no way that the predominant people that used the river 50 years ago plus were not Black.

That is a sad reality- Hmm … but it is a reality, right? Because especially in the South, we had, you know, largely it was the Black community doing a lion’s share of the work. So who were the people- Mm-hmm … that were out fishing? Who were the folks that were out boating? But yet, in just a couple of years, we’ve completely lost that connection.

Right? So that, I’m saying there’s been this strategic move, through many different communities of separating out this human health and the environment. [00:24:00] Why would you do that? So in Augusta, Georgia, we’re sitting next to where we made the hydrogen bomb. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? So we have Savannah River Site.

We’re a home of some DuPont chemical companies. We also have the Signal Corps, right? So we have a town full of spooks. We have a place where negative environmental impacts absolutely cause cancer. There’s no question. We have billboards that say, “If you have a white card from the government, we’ll give you free healthcare.”

Mm. It’s a known thing. However, the people connecting that environmental impact to their human health still is missing, and I think that that has to be strategic. because the companies don’t want you to think about it, right? Yep. Because that means it’s gonna have to decrease how much benzene, how much toluene, how much lead you put in, and especially in communities like Savannah, Augusta, who are very old, New York, same thing, you’re talking about infrastructure that’s 300 years old, right?

And systems that are 300 years old. So you have massive [00:25:00] even past contamination. Yep. Um, and so moving, continuing to move forward and incorporating people back into that environment, not necessarily by just even getting them out on the water, but understanding the drinking water is, is just critical, and we’re not doing it.

Thomas Hynes : Well, that’s, you know, a- and it, it is. When you were saying, like, “We gotta stop hugging trees,” or something like that, like, it’s easy to be like, to, to dismiss that and be like, oh, that’s- Yep … if we have time, that’s not good for business- I mean, that’s another thing that drives me crazy is people are like, “It’s not good for business.”

It’s like, do you know what the healthcare costs are? Do you know what the cleanup costs are? That’s right. Do you know what the remediation costs, the lost business opportunities? It’s like, it’s actually in everyone’s financial interest, if that’s the only thing you care about, uh- Yep … to deal with the environment, which is another thing I’d love to see more of.

But yeah, I don’t, I don’t think we think about it that way, that we really have, like, a PR problem and a messaging problem. And certainly industry doesn’t want you to make those connections. Certainly industry is trying to… Like, I always think of, like, the plastic straw thing. It’s like- Mm … shifting the responsibility on me, and it’s like, wait a minute, [00:26:00] you created this, you…

like, this product that- Yep … can’t be recycled, and now it’s, like, up to me and my, like, my mother and my, and all these old people to, like, take their straws out of their drinks. It’s like, that is not the problem. but I digress. Uh, yeah. I think the, having it tied to human health is another- way, you know, we were saying before, it’s like, do you need water?

You do, and for your health. And so like tying it to human health is like, who doesn’t want that? Who doesn’t want safe communities and safe places to drink for their children, and to go fishing, and to, to not have that fear? And I think, you know, I’m living in a highly urbanized area, it’s easy to lose that connection with nature.

And I’m, I’m very lucky that I live near a park and my kids, you know, we like spend a lot of time actually on the river here, kayaking and, and fishing and things like that, and we can kinda see the impacts a little bit more. But that’s a drop in the bucket, you know. Like, that’s not everybody and every urban area.

 but I think making that connection, you really make a great point. Like, how do you get people to really care about it, and how do you get people to [00:27:00] like break through that noise? It’s like we gotta reframe the conversation. We really do. 

Tonya Bonitatibus: Yeah. … So we in the United States are lucky because we can be bougie, right?

We can care about just the trees. Right. But the reality is that we have 40 countries that Keepers exist in. In Bangladesh, it really, like there is no question, right? Right. The quality of that water is whether or not people die. Right. Um, it’s the same in India, it’s the same in Mexico. Right. It’s the same in South America.

I remember years ago asking, uh… It always amazes me, so when there’s a group of Keepers that are international, I love to ask them, uh, “Who can drink the water at your house?” Oof. Lift your hand if you can drink out of the house. Yeah. And there’s basically four countries that can. Nobody else can, and it’s not even…

The reason that I started asking that question, is because I was curious, like what are the top issues for our international Keepers? To me, you would think drinking [00:28:00] water, right? Drinking water’s gonna be right up there. It’s never even in the top four or five. It’s not even something that they’re really thinking about.

They’re still trying to get people to stop dumping just straight into the river. They’re still trying to get people to stop living in… You know, like there’s such a, a step back, so I would say that often the international Keepers, they figured it out, but it’s because they don’t have much of a choice.

Uh- Right … we’ve gotten a little bougie here. 

Thomas Hynes : That’s, that’s, that’s very true. And I think it’s, it’s bougie like in the service of the right things, but I- Yeah … think it loses sight of like the bottom line, and I think, like I I love a charismatic megafauna as much as the next person. I love a humpback whale, I love a coyote- Yeah … a rare bird. I’m like, love birds and, and all that, and I think- You know, that’s, the heart’s in the right place with that, but it has to ladder back to people or else it’s just bougie.

It’s just like a hobby, you know? Like, and then- Yeah … I think it can be politically dismissed if it’s not, like, a real, what do they call it? Like a- Wow … dinner table issue. Like, there’s no bigger dinner table issue than, like, [00:29:00] can you drink the water or will you get sick and die? Like, that is- Yeah … that is, uh, that is pretty germane, I would say.

Tonya Bonitatibus: Well, and I, I should have said something a while ago. So , one of the greatest things… So I’m incredibly competitive, and I think that works really well , in this environment. But , I remember in, uh, like Marketing 101, so if you are, if you were trying to sell Nikes, right? You were, like, you work for the Nike company, you wanna sell Nikes.

You’re trying to figure out, who do I talk to? Well, the last person you’re gonna do is talk to somebody who’s a diehard Adidas wearer, right? That’s not where you’re gonna go, and it doesn’t really make sense to talk tremendously to the few people that only wear Nikes, ’cause you’ve already gotten them. So it’s really about this middle, right?

You’re trying to push over into the people that wear the Adidas every once in a while. And that really has to be a component of every issue that you bring to the table that you wanna deal with. Like, [00:30:00] compromise has to be part of it from the get-go. Yeah. You cannot be a purist. and you have to realize that, yes, I wanna save every single sturgeon.

Zero question. I love sturgeon. However, in being able to substantially save those sturgeon, I’m going to have to recognize compromise, and recognizing other people’s concerns that are negatively affected if we have a million sturgeon, for example. and that, that just has to be, has to be part of it. , But I, do think it’s the competitive edge that makes me like that, because I don’t wanna be a purist, I wanna win.

Yeah. 

Thomas Hynes : Yeah. I want you to win too, by the way.

Well, Tonya this has been such a great conversation, and I could talk to you all day, and I am glad, I said this off-air, but I am glad we avoided the Richard Nixon  rabbit hole, because I could go down that path all day long. But is there anything else that you want to leave us with?

Tonya Bonitatibus: I guess , the thing that I would like, to make sure that we get across, and this is not to any [00:31:00] keepers that are listening, but to everybody else  is that this is the movement that can save the world. I have zero doubt in that.  I am honored to serve at a very high elected office within Waterkeeper and that is because I am so in love with this movement and these 300 people throughout the world who have given their entire lives to trying to protect their communities.

And so the one thing that I really hope gets across is that this is a movement that you need to believe in and you need to engage in. Yeah. And for those in the United States, as weird as it sounds, we’re lucky. We don’t have nearly the challenges the folks internationally do. , But again, this is the greatest movement in the world, and it’s because of the people.

Thomas Hynes : And I would say, Tonya, that’s, that’s also because of people like you and what you’ve done, and — you’re talking about this as though you’re outside of the movement. You are, like, one of the stars of this movement, and, I will just say, I say this a lot, but,, the best part of my job is that I get to speak to, riverkeepers and [00:32:00] waterkeepers around the world.

 And the combination of that, that DNA that makes all of you so interesting and unique and effective, is such an inspiring thing to see, and I’m, I was so glad I got the chance to speak with you today. This is an issue that I’ve wanted to talk about for a while like a liberal New Yorker just looking out at the world.

And, I love your city, I love your river, and I loved speaking with you today, so thank you so much for all you do for all you did here today, but all you do every day. Thank you so much. 

Tonya Bonitatibus: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.