Equity In Every Drop: Series Five, Episode One

Justinn Overton of Coosa Riverkeeper joins to discuss how growing up outdoors in Alabama on Logan Martin Lake and the Coosa River shaped her love for waterways and led her into advocacy and Waterkeeper work, beginning with volunteering for Black Warrior Riverkeeper in exchange for concert tickets. She describes the challenge of protecting rivers across 12 Alabama counties with limited funding and staff, and the emotional toll of slow progress, regulatory capture, and issues like PFAS, PCBs, coal ash, and a proposed graphite mine near her rural community. Overton shares burnout tools including reframing “I have to” into “I get to,” setting boundaries to be accessible but not always available, relying on therapy and Waterkeeper peers, staying connected to nature, visiting other Waterkeepers with her team, and finding “joy” after her mother Joy’s death by enjoying the river she protects.

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Thank you for listening, sharing, and supporting our mission to ensure everyone’s right to clean water. Together, we demand equity in every drop.

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Transcript – Series 4, Episode 1: Waterkeepers Working Worldwide

WaterKeeper – Justinn Overton

[00:00:00] Thomas Hynes : Our guest today is Justinn Overton of Coosa Riverkeeper in Alabama. Justinn graduated magna cum laude from the new college program at the University of Alabama with a degree in environmental advocacy, and she also holds a master’s certificate in nonprofit management from University of Alabama at Birmingham.

Though Justinn only joined Coosa River Keeper as the executive Director in 2012 and has served as a Staff River keeper since 2020. She has been swimming in the Coosa River for most of her life. Justinn, thank you so much for being here today. It is so great to see you again. 

Justinn Overton: Likewise. Thanks for having me. I did my best to not make any faces during the intro, which is always my least favorite part, so.

Thomas Hynes : Yeah, the intro is the hardest part for me because it’s, it’s probably the only scripted part, but I want to get it right , and tee up this great guest that we have today. So.

I was saying right before we recorded that you and I spoke about 15 or 16 months ago for a written profile and I’ve done 60 of those and I think it was probably my favorite one. And I was like so disappointed that I didn’t [00:01:00] record that conversation just because it was such a natural fit for a podcast.

And so we’re so lucky and happy to have you here today as a bit of just like table setting. Why don’t you just tell me briefly about yourself and your work on the Coosa River? 

Justinn Overton: Yeah. Well I have had the privilege of spending my entire life in Alabama, which is a really beautiful place, but also a really hard place to be at times, particularly when your heart is set on protecting woods and waterways.

So, I have a deep relationship with my river, and I think most water keepers would probably say that as well. So I’m not super unique in that way. My childhood was spent in the bottom of a really shitty aluminum John Boat on Logan Martin Lake on the Coosa River. Most of my favorite childhood memories were always outside.

I think for me, I had the privilege of outside was sometimes [00:02:00] safer than inside for me. And so being able to explore the woods behind the house and climb magnolia trees, being able to muck around in ditches and storm culverts created a lot of harmony for me, but also as a really avid reader. Like I loved The Secret Garden and the Nancy Drew series, and so for me there was this like sense of excitement and exploration mixed with safety of being outside.

I felt just very comfortable there. So, I grew up really just loving being outside and, and certainly didn’t think that I was gonna be able to manage to make a career out of it. I ran a lot of student organizations like, you know, type a overachiever type, guilty as charged at the University of Alabama helped start the recycling program in Bryant Denny Stadium

there. And so for me, advocacy was something that I, I kind of fell into at a very young age. I used to, [00:03:00] you know, pull a radio flyer around different buildings. My mom owned a company that provided commercial plants and I would collect phone books for the school drive to be recycled. And I won that multiple years.

Okay. Multiple years. But I mean, a lot of it was like, I just found it very easy to wanna advocate for a place that I just loved very tenderly, but also just really holistically. And so as I went through college and really learned about what a Waterkeeper was, I kind of stumbled into it in a really pretty funny way.

Um. Like most college students, I had a existential choice. Do I go to the concert or do I have money to buy beer? And at the time I was thinking to myself, well, how can I get into the show? I think it was like a reggae show in Tuscaloosa. Yeah, that was my next question. I reached out to Charlie Scribner, who is still with Black Warrior Riverkeeper and said, Hey, I run these student groups.

Can I put up flyers for y’all in [00:04:00] exchange to getting tickets to the show so that I could have money for beer? Sure.

Smart 

Justinn Overton: in both worlds. Yeah. That’s brilliant. Right. Thank you. I thought so too. That’s good Thought. Thought was good. You got both. Yeah, so that was my first exposure was really getting to understand what the difference between an average environmental organization was and what the spirit of being a water keeper meant.

And so it’s a real privilege to be able to draw on my childhood experiences to relate with the communities that I now serve. While also being able to work alongside many people that I consider to be heroes of mine. You know, like I have the chance to work with some of the most incredible waterkeepers in the Gulf, south Atlantic region and in Alabama.

I feel super, super fortunate. But it’s been really hard. I mean, I started at this organization when there was just two of us with a very meager budget. And I mean, we’re still serving 12 counties of Alabama with nine full-time staff members and eight [00:05:00] seasonal employees, and we’re still incredibly funded and understaffed.

so, yeah, I love my river. I hope that you’ll come visit and come swim sometime. It’s, I would love that.

Thomas Hynes : Yeah. 

Justinn Overton: It is just a really special place. And I mean that’s the cool thing about the work that we get to do is that I get to work with people who feel that exact same way and like that’s some of my favorite things is like going to visit other Waterkeepers.

But anyway, you asked me a question. I meandered through the answer. I hope I gave you what you were looking for.

Thomas Hynes : You absolutely did. It was a very riverine answer, right? It was like it flowed. Yeah. So when we spoke a couple months ago, or I guess it was over a year ago one of the main takeaways that I had was how funny you are.

But also there was like this conversation that we had had was sort of about, I guess burnout or sustaining yourself in this work because, and that kind of brings me to my next question, which is like, I’m sure this is, I, I know it is very fulfilling work. You can hear it in your voice , and I know you and I know everyone else, I know many of the other [00:06:00] water keepers and this is, this is very fulfilling work, but how is it also challenging?

How is it also frustrating? Personally or, logistically I don’t know how anything is other than personally frustrating, but. what’s the other side of that coin? 

Justinn Overton: That’s a great question. And I’m ready to give you the dirty answer, which is vacillate between being really sad and really mad on a regular basis personally about this work.

I’m really sad because sometimes it takes so much effort to get what feels like such small incremental wins, whether that’s at the regulatory level, whether that’s getting the funding. Whether that’s growing our capacity, it is just so slow. And the sense of urgency for me is so great that I get frustrated with pace.

Sometimes I get frustrated with myself because like I not always set a great example for my team with my work life balance.

I [00:07:00] hate that, but I feel like that’s really important to admit, like awareness is the first step, you know? 

Thomas Hynes : Yeah. 

Justinn Overton: But also it’s difficult for me because I get so angry because it’s so obvious to me

that protecting this river is protecting a liquid asset that is motivating so many local economies in a really rural part of Alabama. So I hate that I get cast sometimes into this role that isn’t mine. Like I, I don’t belong in this time space continuum that polluters put me in. But it’s just easier for them to say that we’re all like X, Y, or Z.

And so it frustrates me because I feel like I have been given the opportunity to, to speak for this river and its critters and communities. And so those two feelings of sadness and anger sort of vacillate in me sometimes on a daily basis. But it also feels like the gravity of the work [00:08:00] has this. It’s like wearing a chest plate, you know, like when we’re talking about critters and peril, we’re talking about communities with PFAS laden water.

We’re talking about industry capture in regulatory agencies that like, I can’t fix right now. My realm of control is so much smaller than I want to admit that it is. And so, yeah, I spend a lot of time in my feels, and I think that’s what we talked about last time. , I think that we need to talk about this more as a movement and as a community, because I don’t wanna be bitter, I don’t wanna get more bitter as I do this work, and it would be really easy for me to, so I’m trying to find the joy , , in the discomfort of it.

Without feeling like I’m trying to make myself feel better. Does that make sense? 

Thomas Hynes : Yeah, absolutely. It does. , And I would just say that, the sadness and anger is also very relatable. And I also like how you’re like, , the way I’m hearing it is that you said you [00:09:00] were sort of cast in this role, but it’s also like

to me, it’s like, well, who wouldn’t see the urgency of this? Right? Yeah. Like the urgency is like self-evident. So if you’re not sad and angry about it, then are you deluding yourself? Are you part of the problem? Are you just not like caring, like, you know, it’s like a rational person would respond the way you’re responding in this very unpleasant emotional feel, your feels. Where else would this road take you? You know? Like it’s, yeah. And I, and I also just personally in this work and, and in, in like other ways, like, I get really frustrated about pace too.

‘Cause I’m like, it’s ready, like it’s happening. Let’s go. I can’t stand the incremental progress and, and progress feels really hard fought, particularly right now.

How do you sustain. You said, you called it finding the joy and the uncertainty, I think. What’s the importance of I, I’m gonna say guarding against burnout.

Justinn Overton: Well, I think that I do, and I, I can only speak for my meat suit, right?

Like I, but I burn out. And I burn up, [00:10:00] okay? I burn out because of external forces, but I burn up because of what is in with the realm of my control and how much I let it get to me, 

Thomas Hynes : right? 

Justinn Overton: What I try to do is make sure those two things don’t happen at the same time is when the

Thomas Hynes : burning off.

Justinn Overton: And the burning out. Yeah. 

Thomas Hynes : Yeah, 

Justinn Overton: yeah, yeah. So like I have some strategies that keep me grounded in my absolute truths, which is clean water is something that we all deserve and that corporations deserve to be held accountable for their externalization of their cost of doing business on us. Agreed. That if there’s a doc to jump off of, I’m gonna do it.

So like, so I think for me, I have had over the years and, and over a lot of heartache and heartbreak, really had to look at myself and especially the ugly parts and be like, [00:11:00] okay. If I’m gonna like really serve as the voice of this river, I’ve got to figure this shit out because like I’m going to go insane or I’m gonna break my own heart trying 

Thomas Hynes : Right, and I think this is getting to the point, the heart of it, like, and then where are you? And then what good are you?

If you’ve maxed out. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it’s like, 

Justinn Overton: yeah. 

Thomas Hynes : And, but, but the impulse to do that is so real and, and genuine that because the situation is so urgent, because the situation is anger and sadness inducing. But then you have to step back and be like, well, no, go at 65 miles an hour so that you don’t like rip the, I don’t know why I’m using a car analogy.

Yeah. Bad for the environment. 

Justinn Overton: No, I mean, 

Thomas Hynes : you know,

Justinn Overton: yeah.

Thomas Hynes : And I also just am reminded of something you said to me when we spoke. There’s two things I reminded you said, jump off a dock you’re gonna do. And that’s your, that was your origin story as I recall, is that you were trying to swim in a creek by your grandparents’ house and it was polluting you.

Yeah, exactly. Like the hell, I’m swimming in this creek and your parents like, Hey, slow down way. I got, there’s, there’s, [00:12:00] there’s yeah, there’s 

Justinn Overton: ccb. 

Thomas Hynes : Yeah. Bccb. Right? And then the other one was river has a. Head in a mouth but not a voice. Is that right? 

Justinn Overton: Very good. Oh my gosh. 

Thomas Hynes : Yeah. I told you I loved our conversation.

Justinn Overton: A plus. Thank you very much. Well, thank you. That means a lot because honestly, if that, if I were to keel over on my laptop tomorrow, my staff would have like four or five of those things that I say all the time, and those would be probably two of them. 

Thomas Hynes : Sure, sure.

Justinn Overton: Well, I think that when it comes to burning out. , We have a lot of dark forces attacking our natural world right now. Yeah, some seen, some unseen. And so for me, and this will be funny whenever this comes out and listen to this version of myself. I need to be outside, not at work.

I need to hear the crickets. 

Thomas Hynes : Mm-hmm. 

Justinn Overton: I need to make [00:13:00] the fire, like I need to do the things that humans have been doing since humanity to, to remind myself that I am not my work. That my worth isn’t whether we beat the polluter or not. 

Thomas Hynes : Yeah. 

Justinn Overton: It’s that I tried and part of the trying sometimes is not trying too hard so that I don’t lose my sense of self.

 My sense of self is what gives me the confidence to walk into these uncomfortable places with my head held high knowing that I feel that I’m representing science and policy and public health in a space where I don’t assume ignorance of the individuals I’m talking to. I think it could be easy to just assume everyone’s against us.

Thomas Hynes : Yeah. 

Justinn Overton: I think a lot of people still just don’t understand and don’t know. And that is a much greater [00:14:00] problem. 

Thomas Hynes : I mean it’s harder to address, but like maybe ultimately like an easier thing. ’cause it’s like still relying on goodness of people. Right? It’s like they just dunno.

Yeah what I think is interesting is like, you know, we were talking about

i’m gonna use, I think cars are so bad for the environment, so I dunno why I’m using this metaphor, but like, if you’re driving at a hundred miles an hour, like that’s not safe. That’s not sustainable. So like how, you know, and like, how do you go to like 75 miles an hour, like 65 an hour so you can go longer, right?

And like, you can like sustain yourself or like that trope about being on an airplane. Put your mask on first because you can’t actually help anyone else until you help yourself. Right? If you’re not okay, how are you gonna do this? And this is also just like personal, but like, I’ve been working in this field for like, you know, six or seven years and I was doing like completely soulless work before this,

pr, corporate communication, like just the worst. Hated it. Wasn’t good at it either. Was not liked in the industry, wasn’t good at it. And I couldn’t sleep at night because I was thinking, what am I doing with my [00:15:00] life? And I will just counter this doom and despair and the, the, the frustrations that I personally though, I will say.

I have an easier time sleeping because at least I know I’m trying to do something. Having spent years not really feeling I was doing anything, I also sleep because I have small children. And so when I can sleep, I do. And that’s not for very long. Makes, that’s not for very long. So, you were talking a little bit about, you know, I wanna talk about how you deal with burnout.

Sure. Why does it need to be addressed and like, you know, and why is it need to be addressed now? Because it’s like, I feel like we got bad news every day. On a national and a local level every day. And it’s very easy to say, well, why even bother? But why should we bother?

Justinn Overton: Well, that’s a great, that’s a great question for me, okay, going back to the sleeping at night thing, I love that I can go to sleep at night.

For the most part, feeling really good about what I’m doing, but I also stay awake at night making sure that I feel [00:16:00] like I’ve done everything I could. 

And I think that when we are in fights, you know, whether it’s PFAS, like I learned yesterday that, I don’t remember if you were at this conference, but I have a graphite mine that is coming to my community, to the county that I live in.

So much prep work had to be done to lay the groundwork for those relationships. And then now I have, I hope, a fighting chance to I don’t even know how to define what winning is yet, so I hesitate to say anything, but to be an advocate for, for the river and for the woods. And, and for rural communities like I live in a rural community on purpose, and I think it’s really easy to, for us to spend a lot of time thinking about the impacts of climate change or resilience in an urban environment.

I really like my night sky. I really like my quiet, , and, and I think that there is , an increasing divide between rural and urban communities. But anyway, that has nothing to do with sleep. See, I meandered again. Your question about what I [00:17:00] do, like what are my tools? it’s, it’s a revolving door of things.

Sure. 

Justinn Overton: But, to answer, I guess a larger question is I was raised with the idea that everything is a choice. So it takes us some mental fortitude , and some mental jujitsu to get to the point where I’m like, okay, I get to choose today to reframe. And that is a practice, because some days I wanna throw glass bottles against a dumpster, just like the average person.

But I do try to reframe and say, instead of saying I have to, I get to like, I get to stand up for this river. Like I don’t have to. 

Thomas Hynes : Right. 

Justinn Overton: You know, I’m choosing to you know, so, I have had to really look within and make sure that I’m not making myself into a martyr because I don’t have to.

Thomas Hynes : Right. This is something that I think about a lot and, and we talk about the reframing. I, the way I will put it is it’s not an obligation, it’s [00:18:00] an opportunity. 

Justinn Overton: Mm. I like that

Thomas Hynes :. Right. And if you think about it that way, you’re like, and then, then it’s a choice. ’cause the, an opportunity is a choice.

It’s not, it’s not a, it’s not a mandate. And 

Justinn Overton: Yeah. 

Thomas Hynes : You know. It doesn’t make the battles easier, it doesn’t make the stress easier, but it does give you a little bit of agency in it, right. I think that that kind of, yeah. Sorry, but go on, please. 

Justinn Overton: No, no, I’m here for it. One of the tools that I have honed over the past maybe three years that has been really helpful for me is this, this simple word with a very big implication, which is boundaries.

This job is seemingly 24 7, and that’s because I let it be, or I was letting it be. 

well, you have to think about it. You’re bored. They’re volunteers. They may only wanna talk or answer your emails after traditional work hours. I may have a 14 hour day where I’m doing nutrient sampling all day, and I’m trailering a boat, couple hours and I’m exhausted.

But that might be that one window that person or that board [00:19:00] member or that citizen has the time. And so I have tried to, in those moments to make myself accessible but not always available. And those words mean different things to different people, but, but to me, I want them to know, they can always call me and leave a voicemail.

They can always call me or text me and say, 9 1 1 big fish kill. But I may not always be available to stop what I’m doing and how that affects my family to like go answer the thing or look at the thing, but also their sense of urgency doesn’t have to be mine. And that’s why having like a strategic plan, I think is so important for an organization because somebody might be absolutely losing their shit about an issue and it is super bad and important, but it’s not within our strategic scope.

Yeah. You know? And that doesn’t mean that I don’t care, but it just means I wanna be effective and meaningful in my [00:20:00] work. By doing less and getting more out of it. Because I used to spread, I mean, I, my availability was really dumb. Like I look back and I’m like, but I think a lot of it was like my own imposter syndrome 

Like wanting people to know I was reliable. But, I’ve reached a point in my career with the majority of the people that reach out to me. You know, it’s like I’m more comfortable setting those boundaries and that has been like huge for me. Because you know, I will get calls until 10 o’clock at night if there’s a bad bill or if there’s a big fight and like that’s okay, but that doesn’t mean it has to like disrupt me as much as I have led it in the past.

So that has taken like therapy and reading and practice and I will probably be working on that for as long as I have a career. This is one of my character flaws. I ain’t scared to admit it. So.

Thomas Hynes : Well, it’s very, it is very generous of you to admit it. And, and I think that the imposter [00:21:00] syndrome, I wouldn’t even call, I mean, I’m not gonna tell you what you’re feeling, but like, it, it, that resonates and then it’s like, you’re not good enough for that.

Like, imposter syndrome, I couldn’t have that. But it’s that and that, that, that, that desire to build trust. And, you know, going back to what you said in the beginning, it’s like, hey, this shit is urgent and it’s happening right now. And like, I gotta take a phone call at 10 o’clock, at 11 o’clock at night, because

the river’s on fire, or there’s a huge fish coat or whatever. Like, there’s good reasons for why you would wanna spread yourself too thin. But I always come back to this idea that like, and I don’t know why, I mean, I mean I do know why, but it feels more relevant right now, where again you just like put your head down and you’re like, all right, well, like I, like I live in New York and you know, we’re gonna keep our congestion pricing, which is gonna be good for air quality and good for street safety. It’s is like a, not this is a total divergent, but it’s like, okay, there’s a small win. You know, like things are moving ahead a little bit and you know, like sort of bear down for like, to take the fight on another day, like, because it’s like we’re gonna [00:22:00] beat our head against the wall and exhaust ourself right now.

Doesn’t mean you like, totally retreat, but like you gotta say it’s funny. It’s like sustainability is the word I come back to. ’cause it’s like, 

Justinn Overton: yeah, 

Thomas Hynes : the work is about sustainability and like keeping everything, but it’s like how do you keep ourselves going strong? Yeah. And, and maintaining and therapy too.

I think, you know, like I, I’m in therapy as well. I’ve been in therapy for, I don’t even know how long. And I think that’s like. To me, , there’s like emotional components and personal components, but a lot of it’s like professional components. It’s like, how do I, Achieve the things I wanna achieve, and how do I, you know, it’s just like talking through that with somebody and there’s such a taboo around this.

And there need not be. But so I just want to just give a shout out to therapy just for everyone listening. 

Justinn Overton: Shout out therapy. Shout out. Ja. Yeah.

For me, my crew, which includes my therapist, is like part of my squad that serve as guardrails. We’re looking out and watching out for each other and, and I’m very fortunate that some of my most favorite men [00:23:00] and women in this whole world have the name Riverkeeper or Waterkeeper attached to their profession. 

You know, like I have climbed mountains in Nepal. I have paddled swamps. I mean, I have been my most strong and most vulnerable self with the people that do this work. And I think that’s part of the reason that we kind of like migrate to each other as friends is because we get the anguish of the work that maybe your family doesn’t.

And, so for me, it’s like I feel like my Waterkeeper family are some of my most important. Allies in, Hey, I have a problem, and they’re the first person to come help. They’re the first people that if I have a river issue or if I have a HR issue that I can like call on my community.

And so I hate that therapy is taboo for some people because for me it’s essential to understanding myself and being able to hear myself. And if I can’t do [00:24:00] that, how am I supposed to hear and understand and feel the needs of the communities that we serve? If I can’t even hear what’s going on in my head and heart,

Thomas Hynes : And the idea that we’re expected to, you know, like you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t self-diagnose a dermatology issue or like knee pain or

you know, any other maldy you would, you wouldn’t be like, well, I didn’t go to school for this one. I’m sure I can figure it out. You know, but like, the most complex, complex, complex organ in your, in your body, you’re like, I got this. Like, I know my brain. Like you don’t really actually, and that’s okay. Yeah.

Do you think that therapy or just, I mean boundaries, we’ll call it boundaries, therapy, sustainability, self-care, whatever we wanna call it. However it looks for you. Or for one, is that something that more river keepers, water keepers, or just environmental advocates at large need?

Justinn Overton: I mean, I think every person, I don’t care what you do,

I think the polluters need therapy too,

Justinn Overton: but like I do,

I think everybody does we need as a society, as a culture. we have a tendency to tune out. You just doom scroll your [00:25:00] phone, you turn off the TV ’cause it’s too much.

But what I feel like this job , and my sort of self-awareness as well as self-care routine requires me to tune in.

You know, and so for me that is playing outside. That is enjoying the resources that I get to protect, so like my entire adult life, I have wanted to live in Coosa County and not because it’s the same as Coosa, Riverkeeper or anything like that, but just like I get in the county and . Something happens 

to me. .

It reminds me of like when you read the book, the Secret Garden, where you like go through that portal and then everything opens up and so I just purchased some property in Coosa County and Congratulations. Thank you. Right on the river and I have creek access, I’ve got main channel access, I have farm area.

I’ve got mixed in of hardwoods. And so for me [00:26:00] being able to tend to earth the way that I tend to water is also like really important. , But also I think , not knowing like the limits of when I need to go outside or like when I need to not put the meter down and pick the paddle up, you know, so to speak.

Thomas Hynes : Yeah. Be outside and not 

working, right, as you said. 

Justinn Overton: Yeah. Right. Be outside and not working. Be outside playing. Be outside and reconnecting with that little girl that wanted to play in that ditch, you know, with, with the, the literal things that brought me to the work. And I think that, I don’t know, I’m a silly goose.

I can’t help it, you know? And

so for me being able to like flex the silly goose muscle when I have a lot of times at work to like really be articulate and measured and thoughtful, , which I wanna be those things [00:27:00] anyway, but like, it really feels nice to like run amok.

I’m into it.

 

Thomas Hynes : Can I, and can I just say we like met more formally at like one of the conferences or when we had that phone call for, for the written profile.

But like,, you stood out , and I don’t wanna say it was for Silly Goose, don’t lose that, you know what I mean? Because I think that is part of what makes you an effective communicator, advocate, whatever you wanna say, river keeper is that, you obviously know the details, but like your personality and passion comes through, and you, like, before we started listener, she was like, can I, can I curse on this?

She said cus because she’s from the south, but like, yes. Cus and because it’s like. That’s, I don’t know, like that’s effective. And you’re not coming in here like a textbook. This is somebody who really cares about the work. And I do associate you so much with Coosa River that I had to remind myself not to introduce you as Justinn Coosa when we started.

And I didn’t hear that.

Justinn Overton: That’s funny. 

Thomas Hynes : But yeah, and again, it’s like all about maintaining maintenance and sustainability. Because it is very, it would be very understandable if that little spark or [00:28:00] light or whatever the silly goose nest like burned out and you’re like, no, I just saw like a thousand dead fish.

Or like, I just talked to a bunch of sick kids. ’cause they’re, they’re swimming in the river. So , I don’t feel silly. , I don’t feel like that lightness. Yeah. So that’s easy. That’s understandable if you lost that and you know, whatever you can do to protect that and protect your sanity or whatever, your boundaries, whatever like.

I just keep coming back to it. It’s like you will do greater good one will do greater good if you can do it longer, you know, and you can’t.

Justinn Overton: Oh, for sure. 

You just can’t like, bury the needle or whatever. I don’t know why I keep going back to, I don’t even like drive. Like, I don’t even drive.

Thomas Hynes : That’s crazy to me because like, no, I have a car, but I don’t ever drive.

Justinn Overton: Yeah. Well, I mean, I’m over here wondering, I’m like, what kind of tires do you think he has on them? Do you think they’re all-terrain? Do you think I’m like, is it a two wheel drive or a four wheel drive guy?

Thomas Hynes : My car? Yeah. Yeah. I have two seats in the back of a Mazda. 

Justinn Overton: I don’t, I mean, for my work. And it’s funny, like, because like so much of , my work [00:29:00] is.

Dependent on my pickup truck. 

Thomas Hynes : Yeah, 

Justinn Overton: of course, of course. And so much of my life, I feel like I live in my truck. 

Thomas Hynes : Sure, sure, sure, sure. 

Justinn Overton: I mean, I have experienced a lot of emotions driving that truck in lots of different faces. So, so yeah. No, I’m super interested in, down for your car metaphors. Let’s, let’s go.

Thomas Hynes : Just it’s very American. It’s very at hand, you know. I do. No, I get it. We do have a car. But I, I, like, I commute by a bike and I actually took a boat. To work today. I, ’cause I

Justinn Overton: flex. 

Thomas Hynes : Just Yeah, that totally. The the beautiful East River is just outside off camera here, but it’s like all fogged up so we can’t, I can’t even show you.

Lemme bring this back into focus. All right, well, just before we get started again, Justinn,

, is there anything else that you would want get across? To listeners you know, professional advocates or people who are just interested in this work and are people who care?

How are we gonna maintain this through this particular dark time And just for the long run, , what are we gonna do? 

Justinn Overton: Wow. Answer.

Thomas Hynes : Yeah, no pressure.

Justinn Overton: Well, I mean, I have kind of , a list of things, but I think one of the [00:30:00] first things that I really suggest that people do is go visit another Waterkeeper.

So I take my team, or at least the majority of my team, to visit another Waterkeeper once a year. Because it builds community, it also allows my other staff members to make relationships. ’cause they’re not always able to come to conferences or they’re not able to come to the regional retreats or summits, whatever they’re called now, they can’t always come to that.

So I think that’s really important because I am able to empower them with relationships that help them further their strategic goals, whatever their job is at Coosa River Keeper. But also I think it allows us to see ourselves in other places. You know, we visited Kaaba River Keeper, we are going to visit the Flint River keeper.

We’ve visited um, a Aya basin keeper. And so it’s also very cool because you get to see someone who loves their waterway on their home [00:31:00] turf, , like it’s such a privilege, like Dean from Potomac is coming down to visit us soon. And I’m really excited because we’re gonna take him to our coal ash pond.

And so I love the show and tell of being able to visit other folks in the movement. So I think that’s really important. And it doesn’t have to be a big thing. I just feel like that’s a really important thing to note. I think staying hydrated is really important. I 

Thomas Hynes : do too. I really do. 

Justinn Overton: I’m not always good at it.

I’m not always good at it, but 

Thomas Hynes : I think that’s such a just, I, I tell my 4-year-old. I said, if your stomach hurts, if your head hurts, or if your feelings hurt, drink a glass of water. 

Justinn Overton: Love that. I mean, it’s, I’m adopting this. 

It’s 

so true. Sorry, but go on. 

I No, no. I’m here 

Thomas Hynes : for that. You just threw me such a curve ball.

You’re like, plus drink water. You’re absolutely right. You’re absolutely right. 

Justinn Overton: Well, I mean, I say that because. As silly as it sounds, sometimes I forget, sometimes I’m cranking out the grant, sometimes I’m driving the boat and I don’t wanna have to stop. And then I’m like, why do I feel [00:32:00] weird? I think another thing for me is when I say finding the joy in the work, that kind of means a couple things to me.

Number one, I lost my mom. Right after you and I talked and so like that was what part of the reason that conversation was so raw. But I had just stayed that way since then because grief is such a rollercoaster. Like it is the least linear thing I have ever experienced. But my mom’s name was Joy. And so for me finding her, I feel like I chase her.

Because my mom was a good time girl. Like that woman wanted to catch fish and drink Prosecco and wear red lipstick and hang out on the river. And so I try to do things that 

I feel like could call her in when I feel like she’s far 

or if I feel far from her. But I think another thing is, is just

enjoying the resource that you protect because I [00:33:00] think when I say I put my boat in at Barrett’s Fish Camp, you know that eucalyptus tree by the ramp?

Anybody, anybody who’s listening to this podcast knows exactly what I’m talking about in Coosa County, to build those relationships and to sustain your relationship with your river is just as important as it is with your donors or with your board, or with your staff.

Like go out there and explore it because no matter how good or how long you’ve been a river keeper, you always have something to learn from being on the water and paying attention, not necessarily to which pipe is discharging, which pollutant, but paying attention to that tree that you didn’t notice that it was that orange last year, or paying attention to, oh, they re graveled this road.

It’s much nicer to drive down. And really relishing in that awareness, I think, sort of is this undercurrent to the love that I feel for my river because it’s changing with me. Just as much as I’m changing with it. And [00:34:00] so I think having, finding that joy is about being present and aware, and part of that is making yourself go have a good time. Even if you’re in a, in a mood, you know? 

Thomas Hynes : Well, I, first of all, and again, I’m, I’m so sorry about your mom, and, but it’s so beautiful the way that you talk about it and what I’m, I’m hearing it’s like you’re like finding capital J Joy and lowercase j. Joy. to the lowercase I, you know.

There’s a lot of ways to go about this work and to inform the public and to get people to care. And there’s scare tactics and urgency, fear mongering. I mean, it’s all very valid, but. Come at it from love, right? And say, you love this pond. Do you love this lake? Do you love this coastline or this river or this eucalyptus tree by the boat ramp on the Coosa River in Cosa County, which we all know

Justinn Overton: obviously.

Thomas Hynes : But you know, it’s like. Do you wanna protect the thing? Do you love or do you want to be scared? And there’s place for both. But I think coming at it with love and saying, let’s protect these [00:35:00] things and maintain these things that we love and let’s find joy in them. And, you know, was it like enjoy the things we’re protecting, I think is how you said, or something like that.

I mean, that’s, 

Justinn Overton: I don’t know. I say stuff. It’s 

Thomas Hynes : a great, we’ll go back and listen. It’s a great strategy, however you said it. 

Justinn Overton: I think , for me. It is so much easier to rally the troops when you’re fighting for something than fighting against something. 

Thomas Hynes : Yeah. 

Justinn Overton: If I’m fighting for this graphite mine, I’m fighting for our waterways and our critters and our public lands being extracted for a very limited amount of resources for a very limited amount of time that cannot be undone. Yeah. Rather than saying, I’m fighting to stop this graphite mine. Like that’s putting too much emphasis on the bad thing and not enough emphasis on the thing that’s worth protecting. 

Thomas Hynes : Yeah. I completely agree.

And it’s a great, yeah. And it’s, and it’s more enjoyable too. Yeah. Well, Justinn, this has been. I’m not surprised. So great speaking with you today.

Justinn Overton: Thanks for having me. 

Thomas Hynes : I’m so happy you’re here. 

And [00:36:00] Marcel, who, I don’t know if our listeners know who that is, but my colleague here in New York, she loves you.

She sends her best. She’s not in the office today. I know. She would’ve like crashed the podcast if she,

Justinn Overton: I would’ve loved it.

Thomas Hynes : She would’ve loved it. I would’ve loved it. The listeners would’ve loved it. But anyway, it’s, it’s been so great talking to you. Thank you for your, your humor and your work and your honesty.

It was awesome speaking to you. 

Justinn Overton: Likewise. Thank you.